Capital Reporting Company
`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`---------------------:
` :
`CARL ZEIS SMT GMBH :
` :
` Petitioner : Case IPR2013-00363
` :
` v. : Patent 7,348,575
` :
`NIKON CORPORATION :
` :
` Patent Owner :
` :
`---------------------:
`
` CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DEPOSITION
` OF RICHARD C. JUERGENS
`
` THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2014
` 9:02 AM
`
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` One Marina Park Drive
` Boston, Massachusetts 02210
`
` Sandra A. Deschaine, CSR, RPR, CLR, CRA
`
`(866) 448 - DEPO
`www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014
`
`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 1
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`
`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`---------------------:
` :
`CARL ZEIS SMT GMBH :
` :
` Petitioner : Case IPR2013-00363
` :
` v. : Patent 7,348,575
` :
`NIKON CORPORATION :
` :
` Patent Owner :
` :
`---------------------:
`
` CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DEPOSITION
` OF RICHARD C. JUERGENS
`
` THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2014
` 9:02 AM
`
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` One Marina Park Drive
` Boston, Massachusetts 02210
`
` Sandra A. Deschaine, CSR, RPR, CLR, CRA
`
`(866) 448 - DEPO
`www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014
`
`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 1
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`2 3
`
`ON BEHALF OF NIKON CORPORATION:
`OBLON, SPIVAK, MCCLELLAND, MAIER &
`4 NEUSTADT, L.L.P.:
`5 John Kern, Esquire
`6 Robert Mattson, Esquire
`7 1940 Duke Street
`8 Alexandria, Virginia 22314 U.S.A.
`9 T. 703.412.3000 F. 703.413.2200
`10 jkern@oblon.com
`11 rmattson@oblon.com
`12
`ON BEHALF OF CARL ZEISS SMT GMBH:
`13 FISH & RICHARDSON, P.C.
`14 Kurt Glitzenstein, Esquire
`15 Marc Wefers, Ph.D., Esquire
`16 One Marina Park Drive
`17 Boston, Massachusetts 02210
`18 T. 617.542.5070 F. 617.542.8906
`19 glitzenstein@fr.com
`20 wefers@fr.com
`21
`22
`23
`24
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`Ex. 2022, p. 2
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 I N D E X
`2 WITNESSES: PAGE
`3 Richard C. Juergens
`4 By Mr. Zern 4/114
`5 By Mr. Glitzenstein 110
`
`6 7
`
` E X H I B I T S
`8 EXHIBITS: DESCRIPTION PAGE
`9 Exhibit 2001 International
` Technology Roadmap
`10 for Semiconductors 8
`11
`12
`13
`14 (Exhibits retained by Attorney Kern.)
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
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`1 P R O C E E D I N G S
`2 RICHARD C. JUERGENS, Deponent,
`3 having first been satisfactorily identified
`4 by the production of his Arizona driver's
`5 license and duly sworn by the Notary Public,
`6 was examined and testified as follows:
`7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
`8 Q. Good morning, Mr Juergens.
`9 A. Good morning.
`10 Q. Do you know why you're here today?
`11 A. Yes.
`12 Q. Are you here for -- are you here
`13 as an expert witness for Karl Zeiss?
`14 A. Yes, I am.
`15 Q. Are you here for Inter Partes
`16 Review IPR2013-00363?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. Is that involving U.S. Patent
`19 Number 7,348,575.
`20 A. Yes.
`21 Q. I'd like to ask you a few
`22 questions about your background to start off
`23 the day.
`24 A. Okay.
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`1 Q. Would you please begin by telling
`2 me about your education.
`3 A. I have a Bachelor's degree in
`4 Physics from California State College of
`5 Fullerton, and that is in Fullerton,
`6 California, and I have a Master's degree in
`7 Physics from University of California,
`8 Irvine.
`9 Q. And did your studies in physics
`10 focus on optics?
`11 A. They did not.
`12 Q. Would you please tell me where you
`13 learned about lithography technology?
`14 A. I picked it up over the course of
`15 my career. On-the-job training, you might
`16 say.
`17 Q. Can you give me some examples of
`18 on-the-job training?
`19 A. My actual employment has never
`20 really impinged upon microlithography. Where
`21 I learned about the techniques of
`22 microlithography were from conferences that I
`23 attended where I have listened to papers and
`24 talks, and from work that I've done for Fish
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`1 & Richardson.
`2 Q. So just for clarity, have you
`3 worked at any time as a lens designer in
`4 microlithography?
`5 A. Well, there's two questions in
`6 there.
`7 I have worked as a lens designer,
`8 but I have not worked as a lens designer
`9 specifically in microlithography.
`10 Q. So would you consider then
`11 microlithography more of a hobby than a
`12 profession?
`13 A. Optics is my profession, and
`14 microlithography is part of that profession.
`15 Q. I see.
`16 Do you have any publications in
`17 the field of microlithography?
`18 A. Not specifically in the field of
`19 lithography, no.
`20 Q. Do you have any publications in
`21 the field of optics generally?
`22 A. Yes, I do.
`23 Q. Can you list those or just
`24 reference them generally?
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 A. They are listed in my CV, which is
`2 one of the exhibits submitted in this
`3 discussion.
`4 Q. Fair enough.
`5 Do you know what the acronym ITRS
`6 stands for?
`7 A. No, I do not.
`8 Q. Would you agree that it stands for
`9 the International Technology Roadmap of
`10 Semiconductors?
`11 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
`12 foundation.
`13 THE WITNESS: I would accept
`14 that.
`15 BY MR. KERN:
`16 Q. Do you know what a technology node
`17 is in the context of resolution?
`18 A. I've never come across that exact
`19 term, no.
`20 Q. Say, for example, a half pitch of
`21 90 nanometers, does that help your
`22 understanding?
`23 A. A half pitch.
`24 Q. A half pitch of 90 nanometers as
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`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 7
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 an example of a technology node.
`2 A. No, that does not help.
`3 Q. Would it help if I had told you
`4 that it was related to the resolution of a
`5 rejection lens system?
`6 A. It does not help much, no.
`7 MR. KERN: I'd like to introduce a
`8 document and mark it Nikon 2101.
`9 (Exhibit No. 2001, International Technology
`10 Roadmap for Semiconductors, marked for
`11 identification.)
`12 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: 2001.
`13 MR. KERN: 2101 corresponds to
`14 your Zeiss exhibits.
`15 (Off-the-record discussion.)
`16 BY MR. KERN:
`17 Q. Could you read the title of this
`18 document, Mr. Juergens?
`19 A. It is called the International
`20 Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors.
`21 Q. And it's the 2003 Edition,
`22 Lithography?
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. And are you familiar with this
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`1 publication?
`2 A. I am not.
`3 Q. Would it surprise you to learn
`4 that this publication is published every
`5 year?
`6 A. It would not surprise me.
`7 Q. Would it surprise you to learn
`8 that this publication sets forth the industry
`9 expectations for the future of semiconductor
`10 devices?
`11 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
`12 foundation.
`13 THE WITNESS: I accept that.
`14 BY MR. KERN:
`15 Q. So could you please turn to Page
`16 16 of this document and look at Figure 53.
`17 What is the title of the graph shown in
`18 Figure 53.
`19 A. It's labeled, "Lithography
`20 Exposure Tool Potential Solutions."
`21 Q. And do you see the years across
`22 the top of the graph?
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. And what is the range of the years
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 shown on the top of the graph?
`2 A. It starts at 2003 and goes to
`3 2019.
`4 Q. Thank you.
`5 And the next line below that is
`6 labeled "Technology Node."
`7 Do you see that?
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. And can you read the range of half
`10 pitches shown corresponding to the years 2003
`11 through 2019 shown in that row?
`12 A. Okay. It starts under 2004. It
`13 says, "hp90."
`14 And then under 2019 it lists
`15 hp16."
`16 Q. So what is your understanding of a
`17 half pitch in nanometers?
`18 A. I would assume that this is the
`19 half spacing between two individual, separate
`20 lines.
`21 Q. And what is your understanding of
`22 a graphic, such as the one shown in Figure
`23 53, showing a half pitch changing from -- a
`24 half pitch of 90 nanometers in 2004 to a half
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`1 pitch of 60 nanometers in 2019?
`2 A. Could you clarify what the
`3 question is?
`4 Q. Sure. What is your understanding
`5 of this graphic when it indicates that a half
`6 pitch is 90 in year 2004 and is being reduced
`7 year by year to a half pitch of 16 in 2019?
`8 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
`9 foundation.
`10 THE WITNESS: The graph appears to
`11 indicate that over time, between 2004
`12 and 2019, that the half pitch will be
`13 steadily decreasing from 90 to 16.
`14 BY MR. KERN:
`15 Q. So do you understand that this
`16 graph is showing the industry expectation for
`17 resolution moving forward from 2003 past,
`18 present into the future?
`19 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
`20 foundation.
`21 THE WITNESS: That's what it
`22 appears to be, yes.
`23 BY MR. KERN:
`24 Q. So based on the 2003 ITRS
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`1 document, would you say that it's reasonable
`2 that it was the plan for the semiconductor
`3 industry to achieve better resolution in the
`4 future?
`5 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
`6 foundation.
`7 THE WITNESS: I could not answer
`8 that since I have not read this
`9 document.
`10 BY MR. KERN:
`11 Q. Fair enough.
`12 Per our prior discussions, do you
`13 agree that resolution is an important design
`14 feature of a projection lens?
`15 A. Yes.
`16 Q. And without having the benefit of
`17 reading this document and looking at the
`18 graphs shown in Figure 3, would you agree
`19 that the graph -- I'm sorry, scratch that,
`20 53, would you agree that the graph shown in
`21 Figure 53 is at least indicating that, in the
`22 future, expectations are that the half pitch
`23 will be reduced?
`24 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
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`1 form, foundation.
`2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
`3 BY MR. KERN:
`4 Q. Are you aware of some of the
`5 leading technologies in lithography at the
`6 time of filing the '575 Patent?
`7 A. Is this question, Am I aware of
`8 the technology at that time, or the question
`9 is, Was I aware at the time of the filing?
`10 Q. At the time of filing, did you
`11 just list some of the leading technologies in
`12 microlithography? Roughly 2003.
`13 A. About that time is when immersion
`14 technology was being applied to lithography,
`15 and catadioptric technology was also being
`16 applied to lithography.
`17 Q. When you say "applied," were they
`18 leading technologies in the field at that
`19 time, or were they still in their design
`20 phase?
`21 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
`22 form.
`23 THE WITNESS: They were probably
`24 still in their design phase.
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`1 BY MR. KERN:
`2 Q. And what about EUV lithography,
`3 would you agree that was available in 2003
`4 and a leading technology?
`5 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
`6 form.
`7 THE WITNESS: That was not
`8 available back in 2003.
`9 BY MR. KERN:
`10 Q. What about 157 nanometer
`11 lithography, was that a leading technology in
`12 2003?
`13 A. I would say yes.
`14 Q. Fair enough.
`15 Have you personally designed any
`16 reduction projection lens for lithography?
`17 A. No.
`18 Q. Have you managed the design of a
`19 projection lens for photolithography?
`20 A. No.
`21 Q. So I want to look at Exhibit 1129,
`22 and that's your CV.
`23 Could you look at the second
`24 paragraph and refresh your recollection of
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`1 that paragraph?
`2 (Witness reviewing document.)
`3 A. Okay.
`4 Q. For the record, could you please
`5 read aloud the last full sentence in that
`6 paragraph?
`7 A. "He worked eleven years at Optical
`8 Research Associates, the suppliers of CODE V,
`9 and went around the world giving seminars,
`10 lectures, and technology support on how to
`11 use CODE V effectively for design and
`12 analysis of all kinds of optical systems
`13 including lithography systems."
`14 Q. So is it the intention of that
`15 last sentence to imply that you designed
`16 lithographic systems while at Optical
`17 Research Associates?
`18 A. No.
`19 Q. I want to ask you about some of
`20 the authors of several articles and lens
`21 designers and whether you're familiar with
`22 their work or them personally.
`23 Are you familiar with Mr. Willi
`24 Ulrich in the field of lithography?
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`1 A. Yes.
`2 Q. You're personally familiar with
`3 him?
`4 A. Yes.
`5 Q. And you are familiar with his
`6 works as far as publications?
`7 A. I'm familiar with some of his
`8 works. I would not say I'm familiar with all
`9 of them.
`10 Q. Fair enough.
`11 Are you familiar with Mr. Ulrich's
`12 design in the field of optical lens design,
`13 particularly related to lithography?
`14 A. I'm only familiar with his designs
`15 that have been expressed or shown in the
`16 patents that I've been working with Fish &
`17 Richardson on.
`18 Q. Fair enough.
`19 How about the same questions with
`20 regard to Mr. David Williamson? Are you
`21 familiar with Mr. Williamson?
`22 A. I am.
`23 Q. Are you personally familiar with
`24 Mr. Williamson?
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`1 A. Yes.
`2 Q. Are you with familiar any of Mr.
`3 Williamson's publications?
`4 A. I have heard him give some talks
`5 at conferences. I could not now tell you
`6 what they are on, other than probably touched
`7 on lithographic topics. But I would not say
`8 that I'm intimately familiar with his
`9 complete history of publications.
`10 Q. And Mr. Williamson is a lens
`11 designer in the field of lithography; is that
`12 accurate?
`13 A. Yes, he is.
`14 Q. Are you familiar with any of
`15 Mr. Williamson's optical designs in the field
`16 of lithography?
`17 A. No, I'm not.
`18 Q. Same questions with regards to a
`19 Mr. David Shafer.
`20 Do you know Mr. David Shafer?
`21 A. Yes, I do.
`22 Q. And do you know him personally?
`23 A. Yes, I do.
`24 Q. And are you familiar with
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`1 Mr. Shafer's publications or a subset of his
`2 publications?
`3 A. I am familiar with his -- with
`4 some of his publications. I actually have a
`5 complete set of his publications, but I have
`6 not read all of them.
`7 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
`8 And Mr. David Shafer is an optical
`9 lens designer in the field of lithography?
`10 A. Yes, he is.
`11 Q. And are you familiar with some or
`12 all of Mr. Shafer's optical designs in
`13 lithography?
`14 A. I'm familiar with some of them.
`15 Q. Okay.
`16 What about the same questions for
`17 Mr. Yashuhiro Omura. Are you familiar with
`18 Mr. Omura?
`19 A. Yes, I am.
`20 Q. And do you know him personally?
`21 A. I have met Mr. Omura personally,
`22 yes.
`23 Q. And are you familiar with some or
`24 all of Mr. Omura's publications in the field
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`1 of lithography?
`2 A. Only through the patents that I've
`3 seen in conjunction with this task.
`4 Q. Fair enough.
`5 Would you agree that Mr. Omura is
`6 an optical lens designer in
`7 microlithography?
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. Are you familiar with all or some
`10 of Mr. Omura's optical designs in
`11 lithography?
`12 A. Only as shown in his patents.
`13 Q. In the '575 Patent?
`14 A. In particular, yes.
`15 Q. And you also studied the similar
`16 continuation in the '870 patent?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. Are there any other patents of
`19 Mr. Omura that you studied?
`20 A. There is another patent that we
`21 are using as an example of prior art to his
`22 '575 Patent.
`23 Q. Okay. In this proceeding?
`24 A. In this proceeding.
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`1 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
`2 Are you familiar with Mr. Warner
`3 Tabarelli?
`4 A. No.
`5 Q. So you never met Mr. Warner
`6 Tabarelli?
`7 A. I have not.
`8 Q. Do you agree that Mr. Warner
`9 Tabarelli is an optical lens designer?
`10 A. I could not say of my own
`11 knowledge.
`12 Q. Are you aware of any publications
`13 by Mr. Tabarelli?
`14 A. I am aware of a publication that
`15 he has that describes the use of immersion
`16 fluids.
`17 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
`18 Are you familiar with all or some
`19 of Mr. Tabarelli's optical designs in the
`20 field of lithography?
`21 A. No, I'm not.
`22 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
`23 Do you consider the people I just
`24 mentioned to be experts in the field of
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`1 optical design for projection lenses and
`2 microlithography?
`3 A. With the exception of Tabarelli,
`4 whom I do not know, I would say yes.
`5 Q. But you are familiar with
`6 Mr. Tabarelli's work in the form of his
`7 patent?
`8 A. Yes, but that work was not related
`9 to optical design. That was related to
`10 immersion fluids.
`11 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
`12 Would you consider those persons
`13 to be persons of ordinary skill in the art?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. Can you tell me about your main
`16 responsibilities at Optical Research
`17 Associates?
`18 A. I was in the marketing and
`19 customer support group, and I did technical
`20 support through faxes, e-mails, and
`21 telephonically to customers on CODE V. I
`22 gave seminars on the use of CODE V, both at
`23 the -- beginning, and intermediate, or
`24 advanced levels, and I went almost literally
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`1 around the world visiting various countries
`2 giving technical support, doing marketing,
`3 and giving seminars on CODE V.
`4 Q. And during your employment at ORA,
`5 or Optical Research Associates, did you ever
`6 lecture Nikon?
`7 A. I have visited Nikon several
`8 times, yes.
`9 Q. And that was Nikon in Japan?
`10 A. In Japan, yes.
`11 Q. Have you ever visited their U.S.
`12 subsidiary?
`13 A. No, I have not.
`14 Q. And do you recall what the topic
`15 of the lecture was when you visited Japan,
`16 with Nixon in Japan?
`17 A. I visited them several times. The
`18 first time I visited them was to give
`19 demonstrations of CODE V and describe it,
`20 because at the time they were not using CODE
`21 V, and it was in an attempt to convince them
`22 to start to use CODE V.
`23 Subsequent visits to them were to
`24 meet with them and help answer technical
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 22
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`Capital Reporting Company
`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 questions that they had on CODE V.
`2 Q. Does Nikon currently use CODE V?
`3 A. Yes, they do.
`4 Q. Do you remember what group you had
`5 met with when you visited Nikon or groups,
`6 plural?
`7 A. At least one time or more times
`8 the groups I visited were managed by
`9 Mr. Omura.
`10 Q. So how long have you or did you
`11 work at Optical Research Associates?
`12 A. It was almost eleven years.
`13 Q. And from when to when?
`14 A. From 1988 to 1999.
`15 Q. So going back to your
`16 responsibilities at Optical Research
`17 Associates, what percentage of your time at
`18 Optical Research Associates would you say was
`19 devoted to the sales of CODE V software?
`20 A. Zero.
`21 Q. What percentage of your time was
`22 devoted to demonstrating CODE V software to
`23 potential clients?
`24 A. Probably 5 to 10 percent.
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 23
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 Q. Fair enough.
`2 What percentage of your time then
`3 was devoted to customer support of clients
`4 using CODE V software?
`5 A. 75 to 80 percent.
`6 Q. And what percentage of your time
`7 at Optical Research Associates was devoted to
`8 optical design, specifically optical design
`9 of microlithography?
`10 A. Zero percent.
`11 Q. And can you tell me what your main
`12 responsibilities are at Raytheon?
`13 A. I am considered as a senior --
`14 what's called a subject matter expert in
`15 opticals, and I am involved in overseeing the
`16 technical aspects of the various optical
`17 products that are included in Raytheon
`18 products.
`19 Q. How long have you worked at
`20 Raytheon?
`21 A. I started in 1999 up to the
`22 present time, so it has been just over 15
`23 years.
`24 Q. And do you do optical design for
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 24
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 Raytheon?
`2 A. I do.
`3 Q. What type of optical design?
`4 A. It has been primarily infrared
`5 type systems.
`6 Q. So infrared sensors? Infrared
`7 emitters? What type of infrared?
`8 A. Infrared image sensors.
`9 Q. Image sensors. Okay.
`10 And what percentage of your time
`11 at Raytheon is devoted to optical design of
`12 microlithography systems?
`13 A. Zero percent.
`14 Q. So have you been involved in
`15 Sematech, S-e-m-a-t-e-c-h?
`16 A. No, I have not.
`17 Q. Do you know what Sematech is?
`18 A. I cannot say right now what it is.
`19 It sounds familiar, but I do not know what it
`20 is.
`21 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
`22 So prior to your involvement in
`23 this litigation and the prior interference of
`24 the '870 Patent to Omura, have you ever
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 25
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 examined patents related to lens systems
`2 before?
`3 A. Yes.
`4 Q. Have you ever examined patents
`5 related to projection optical systems before
`6 in the field of microlithography?
`7 A. No.
`8 Q. Can you define what a lens unit
`9 would mean to a person of ordinary skill in
`10 the art?
`11 A. Usually that would be considered a
`12 group of lenses that is doing some specific
`13 function within the overall operation of the
`14 lens.
`15 Q. Can you define what it means to be
`16 a lens group to a person of ordinary skill in
`17 the art?
`18 A. A lens group is simply a
`19 concatenation of multiple lenses that are
`20 called a single group for whatever reason the
`21 namer of that group had. It would probably
`22 tend to have the same general meaning as a
`23 lens unit but not exactly the same name.
`24 Q. So people would generally
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 26
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 include -- scratch that.
`2 Back to the definition of a lens
`3 unit.
`4 Lens unit was a grouping of lenses
`5 that had a similar function; is that
`6 accurate?
`7 A. No, that had a specific function.
`8 For example, if I had a telescope followed by
`9 a scanner, followed by an imaging unit, then
`10 I would -- I can call a telescope one unit; I
`11 can call the imager one unit; I can call the
`12 scanning system one unit and so forth.
`13 Q. So a lens unit could fairly be
`14 described as a group of lenses that
`15 functioned together to achieve a function?
`16 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Objection,
`17 form.
`18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
`19 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Just pause for
`20 a moment, give me a moment to object,
`21 please.
`22 BY MR. KERN:
`23 Q. So are you familiar with the
`24 objective lens in a pair of binoculars?
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 27
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 A. Yes, I am.
`2 Q. Is the objective lens in your
`3 definition a lens unit?
`4 A. It could be considered as a lens
`5 unit.
`6 Q. And why would it be considered a
`7 lens unit?
`8 A. Because the objective lens is --
`9 the elements in an objective lens are close
`10 together, and they are relatively separated
`11 from other portions of the overall lens
`12 system.
`13 Q. And what is the function of the
`14 objective lens unit in a pair of binoculars?
`15 A. To collect the incoming light and
`16 focus it.
`17 Q. And does that function play a role
`18 in defining it as a lens unit since the
`19 lenses cooperate together to collect and
`20 focus light?
`21 A. It could.
`22 Q. It could.
`23 Why might it not?
`24 A. The "could" implies that it could
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 28
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`Capital Reporting Company
`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 be called a lens unit for the reason that you
`2 stated.
`3 Q. I see. Okay.
`4 So are you familiar with the
`5 eyepiece lens in a pair of binoculars or
`6 lenses in a pair of binoculars?
`7 A. Yes.
`8 Q. Is an eyepiece unit a lens unit?
`9 A. It could be called a lens unit.
`10 Q. Why could it be called a lens
`11 unit?
`12 A. Because they tend to be grouped
`13 together and form a separate function from
`14 the objective lens unit.
`15 Q. And what is the function of the
`16 eyepiece lens unit in a pair of binoculars?
`17 A. It is to recoluminate the light so
`18 that the human eye can see the light easily.
`19 Q. I'd like to turn to your
`20 Declaration. It's Exhibit 1101. Scratch
`21 that. I believe it's Exhibit 1116.
`22 So in your expert report at
`23 Paragraph 15 there's a section about legal
`24 standards.
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 29
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 Do you agree with that?
`2 A. Yes.
`3 Q. And did you write this section of
`4 your expert report?
`5 A. I had help from Fish & Richardson
`6 in writing it.
`7 Q. What portion or percentage of that
`8 section was written by Fish & Richardson?
`9 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: I'm going to
`10 just, before you answer, Mr. Juergens.
`11 Counsel, I want to make sure I
`12 understand your position on inquiring on
`13 this issue. So you know, Federal Rules
`14 of Civil Procedure 26 protects the types
`15 of questions that you're asking right
`16 now from discovery.
`17 I'm curious as to your position on
`18 the discoverability of this type of
`19 information in view of that.
`20 MR. KERN: Sure. I just want to
`21 see what percentage of the report was
`22 actually written by Mr. Juergens.
`23 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: Right. I
`24 understand the question.
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 30
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`Capital Reporting Company
`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 My question for you is, how do you
`2 view -- do you view the limitations on
`3 the ability to take discovery of experts
`4 set forth in Rule 26 of the Federal
`5 Rules of Civil Procedure as operative in
`6 this proceeding?
`7 MR. KERN: Of course.
`8 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: You do.
`9 MR. KERN: Yes. Okay. Given
`10 that, I'll allow you to answer, but I am
`11 a little concerned about --
`12 MR. KERN: Let rephrase the
`13 question if it's causing
`14 consternation.
`15 BY MR. KERN:
`16 Q. What percentage of Paragraph 15
`17 did you draft, Mr. Juergens?
`18 A. I would say that I did not have to
`19 draft any of it. I did not draft any of it.
`20 I did proof read it. I did read it and
`21 verify that I could understand it and knew
`22 what it meant.
`23 Q. Sure. Fair enough.
`24 Could you please read Paragraph 15
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`CARL ZEISS V. NIKON
`IPR2013-00362
`Ex. 2022, p. 31
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`Juergens, Richard C. 02-13-2014
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`1 aloud?
`2 A. "I understand that when it comes
`3 to interpreting the scope of a claim, the
`4 claim's terms should be given their broadest
`5 reasonable interpretation consistent with the
`6 specification and the prosecution history of
`7 the application or patent. If the
`8 specification provides a definition of a
`9 claim term, the claim term should be
`10 interpreted based on the definition."
`11 Q. And so what does the language
`12 "consistent with the specification" in that
`13 paragraph mean to you?
`14 A. It means to me that the
`15 interpretation of a term must be consistent
`16 with how it is used in the specification of
`17 the patent.
`18 Q. By "used," would you include how
`19 it is described in the specification? Is
`20 that what's meant by "used" in
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