Hayward Industries, Inc.
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`EXHIBIT 1044
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`Hayward Exhibit 1044
`Hayward v. Pentair, et al.
`IPR2013-00285
`
`

`
`[1 copv
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`IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`HAYWARD INDUSTRIES,
`
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner
`
`PENTAIR WATER POOL AND SPA,
`
`INC.,
`
`DANFOSS LOW POWER DRIVES,
`
`Patent Owners
`
`Case IPR20l3-00285
`
`Patent 8,019,479
`
`INC.
`TWIN COURT REPORTING,
`CERTIFIED COURT REPORTERS
`‘
`11 ELISHA DRIVE
`ALLENTOWN, N.J. 08501
`609-259-1228
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`1 of 72 sheets
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`Page 1 to 1 of 194
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`aywar
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`X nut 1044
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`Hayward v. Pentair, et al.
`|PR201300285
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`

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`-
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`-
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`4
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`rI,ame"i'S Steve
`THE V
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`‘WE I7"5e°"PF°dUC.t'°“S:
`2 CU"e"- 1W°FI< IOF C '
`3
`132 Franklin Corner Road, Lawrenceville, New
`4
`Jersey.
`5
`6
`
`
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`Videotaped deposition. was" taken at the
`1
`law offices of McCarter & English, Four Gateway
`2
`3 Center, 100 Mulberry Street, Newark, New Jersey,
`4
`before DANIELA REYNOLDS, License No. x1o199s, a
`5 Cemfled C°”rt Repmter °f the 5ta_te °f New
`6
`Jersey, on July 2, 2014, commencing at 9:20 a.m.
`7
`8
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`A:|’F’.E.flAN_<Z§
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`Will the attorneys state their
`appearances.
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`Steve Cullen, Certified Video Productions
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`CROSS-EXAMINATION BY
`
`22
`‘MR. FAHY:
`Q.
`23
`
`TWIN COURT REPORTING, INC.
`CERTIFIED COURT REPORTERS
`11 ELISHA DRIVE
`24
`ALLENTOWN, NJ. 08501
`NU1
`
`24
`
`25
`
`A-
`
`Good morning.
`_
`G°°d '“°"““9-
`TWIN COURT REPORTING, INC.
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`1
`2
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`Now, Dr. Toliyat, it's my
`Q.
`understanding that you have been an expert before;
`is that correct?
`
`
`
`
`HAMID A. TOLIYAT, ph'D_, p_E_
`I
`
`W11-NESSPAGE
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`4
`5
`6
`
`A.
`Q.
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`So you have also been deposed before?
`That's correct.
`
`When is the most recent time that you
`Q.
`7
`have testified at a deposition?
`8
`9
`A.
`It was back in this litigation in
`
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`CROSS-EXAMINATION By MR_ FAHY;
`4
`10 Washington, D.C. a few months ago in the last
`
`
`REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CHRISTIE: 186
`11
`year-
`
`12
`Q.
`So it was —— go ahead.
`
`13
`A.
`Some, yeah, several months ago.
`14
`Q.
`So it was in connection with the
`
`15
`co-pending litigation involving the same subject
`
`16 matter as this proceeding?
`17
`A.
`That's correct.
`
`18
`Q. When was the last time or the most
`
`19
`recent time that you've testified at trial, if
`20
`ever?
`
`
`
`21
`A.
`I testify at the ITC court several
`
`22
`years ago._ It's in my CV.
`
`23
`Q.
`’ And what was the technology involved
`
`24
`in the ITC action?
`
`
`The technology involved was, it was
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`2 of 72 sheets
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`MR. CHRISTIE: Yes. Scott Christie
`7
`and Steve Halpern, McCarter & English, on behalf
`8
`MCCARTER & ENGLISH
`of petitioner Hayward. Seated with us is the
`9
`100 Mulberry Street
`11
`10 witness Hamid Toli at
`Four Gateway center
`12
`Newark, New Jersey 07101-0652'
`'
`Y
`'
`BY: SCOTT S. CHRISTIE, ESQUIRE
`11
`MR. FAHY: And Christopher Fahy and
`STEVEN E. HALPERN, ESQUIRE
`_
`.
`-
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`13
`COUNSEL FOR THE PETITIONER
`12
`Joel Austin with Quarles & Brady for the patent
`14
`13
`owners.
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`14
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`QUARLES & BRADY, LLP
`
`
`300 North LaSal|e Street, Suite’ 4000
`Chicago, Illinois 60654-3422
`BY: CHRISTOPHER J. FAHY, ESQUIRE
`JOEL A. AUSTIN, ESQUIRE
`COUNSEL FOR THE PATENT OWNERS
`
`
`
`
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
`
`.
`h
`"”-p°'t°’ Swear t E ""‘t”°55-
`~
`P. H. D..
`T 0 L I Y A T.
`H A M ID
`HAVING BEEN DULY SWORN ACCORDING TO LAW, WAS
`EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
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`‘
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`regarding thevwind turbine generators.
`Q. And do you recall whether you
`testified on behalf of the patent owner or not?
`A.
`I was testifying on behalf of the
`defendant.
`
`Q. And when was the last time that you
`have provided an expert report associated with the
`litigation?
`A.
`It was, I guess the last time that I
`provided an expert report or declaration was
`associated with the litigation in this case.
`Q. About how many times have you been an
`expert witness in relation to a litigation or a
`patent matter?
`MR. HALPERN: Objection to form.
`I have been an expert a few times.
`A.
`One case was Texas Instrument, the other was the
`wind turbine case and, and also this case, but --
`I'm sorry, I forgot your question. Whether I
`provided expert report or whether I have been
`involved?
`
`Q. Whether you've been involved.
`A.
`And I'm involved with this case and a
`
`few other currently.
`Q.
`. About how many others?
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`A.
`There are, I guess, two other cases.
`Q. Are they related to this matter or
`the parties in this matter in_ any way?
`A.
`No, they are not.
`I don't think so I
`should say.
`Do they involve patents?
`Q.
`They're all related to patent issues.
`A.
`Q. Generally what is the subject matter
`of the two other cases?
`A.
`I'm not sure ifI can disclose the
`
`detail because they're ongoing cases. They're in,
`as far as I know, they're in the discovery stage,
`beginning stage, but in general one is related to
`hybrid electric vehicles, and the other one,
`basically it's a drive train of the hybrid
`electric vehicles which is a motor drive. The
`other case is related to a motor drive associated
`with sunroof and electronics controlled roof
`
`systems or window system, and basically it's motor
`drive related to that issue.
`
`Do any of those other cases involve
`Q.
`McCarter & English?
`A.
`No, they are not.
`Q.
`Besides the present matter and the
`co-pending litigation, have you ever provided
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`8
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`expert testimony with relation to pumps or pumping
`systems?
`So the question just repeating it is
`A.
`whether I have provided expert report related to
`pumping system aside from this litigation?
`Q. Correct.
`A.
`I would say it was, in TI case it was
`related to control of -- of course this is, this
`
`is almost 15 years ago, I guess, so I'm just
`recalling from the memory. It was related to the
`control of a permanent magnet motor and it was --
`which has a wide application, not specifically for
`pumping per se.
`,
`Q. Have you ever had your testimony or
`opinions excluded?
`A.
`Not that I'm aware of.
`
`Is it your understanding that you're
`Q.
`here today because you provided a declaration on
`behalf of Hayward in this matter?
`A.
`That's correct.
`Q. Have you ever been engaged by Hayward
`on anything else besides this matter and the
`co-pending litigation?
`A.
`No.
`
`Q. Have you ever been engaged by the
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`McCarter & English firm besides this matter and
`the co-pending litigation?
`A.
`No.
`
`Q. What did you do to prepare for your
`deposition today, if anything?
`A.
`I have reviewed my declaration and
`the, the four patents described in my declaration
`and the —— look at the glossary of the
`Schlumberger.
`
`_
`Q. The entire glossary?
`A.
`No, just the definition of the
`pump-off.
`Did you meet with the attorneys?
`Q.
`A. Yes, I did.
`
`_
`Q. When was that?
`A.
`I have been here, I met them I guess
`
`Monday about noon.
`Q.
`For about how long?
`A.
`On Monday, I think four hours or
`
`i
`four, four or five hours.
`‘Q. And did you meet them again after
`Monday?
`
`I met them on Tuesday.
`For about how long?
`Iguess I met them from, from 8:30,
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`about 8:30 until 5, 5:30.
`
`Q. Besides Monday and Tuesday did you
`meet with the attorneys?
`
`For this deposition today?
`A.
`Q. Yes.
`'
`No, not that I recall.
`Not this morning at all?
`This morning I met them very briefly.
`
`So besides reviewing your
`Q.
`declaration, the four patents cited in your
`declaration, the Schlumberger definition for
`pump-off and meeting with the attorneys, have you
`done anything else to prepare for your deposition
`today?
`
`I guess that's about it.
`A.
`Now, I take it, whether it's through
`Q.
`this —- these proceedings alone or otherwise, you
`are familiar with pumps?
`A.
`That's correct.
`
`Q. And you're aware that there are many
`different kinds of pumps?
`A.
`That's correct.
`
`Could you give me some examples of
`Q.
`different types of pumps?
`A.
`Yeah. Thereare, to my
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`understanding, there are centrifugal pumps, there
`are reciprocal pumps, there are progressive cavity
`type of pumps, progressive cavity displacement,
`these are a few. There are others, of course,
`that I can think of like which are at this -- I'm
`
`familiar from turbine point of view, like Pelton
`and —— Pelton, P—e-I-t-o-n. So there are a few
`other, and Francis.
`
`Q. What's a Pelton pump?
`A. Well, Pelton is usually used for
`turbine, as I said, in hydro turbine applications.
`I -- they might be used in -- they might be used
`for ~- I don't -- I'm not familiar with Pelton
`
`pumps, let's put it this way, at least the
`application.
`I'm familiar with Pelton turbines
`using hydro turbine.
`
`Q. And what's -- could you give me some
`examples of hyd.ro turbine application?
`A. Well, in case that -- it depends.
`This is, again, coming from my 35-years-ago memory
`that I have look at it in my past -work experience
`in previous life that they are used, if I recall
`correctly, for when you have a dam and the head is
`too high, so in case of the large clams, sometimes
`Pelton type of turbines are used.
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`NI\JNI\JNl\Ii—~i-ti--i—~l--»-ti--5-ni—=i-AU'l-hU)l\Ji-*OLD(IJ\IO‘|U'l-K>-LA)l\JI-‘©LO®\lO\U1-J5-LAJNDD-I
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`How about a Francis pump, what's a
`Q.
`Francis pump?
`A.
`Francis pump is another type of pump.
`These are —— I mean turbines, I'm sorry. These
`
`are again used in hydro power plants for
`generating electricity. Again, I'm -- what I have
`seen personally, Francis turbines dismantled. _And
`again, they are used.for different type of hydro
`power plants.
`Q.
`How about an electronic or electric
`submersible pump, familiar with that?
`_
`A.
`Yes, I do have some familiarity and
`experience with the so—called ESP.
`
`Q. And what is your familiarity and
`experience with ESPs?
`A.
`I have done some consulting work in,
`
`that's in my CV, back in late '90s, beginning of
`2000, I believe, on oil -- I mean, sorry, water
`well, water well pumps, submersible pumps and
`their controller.
`
`Q. And are ESPs centrifugal pumps?
`A.
`There are the, there are various type
`of -- or ESPs, to answer your, I guess your
`question, if you repeat that, it would be better.
`Q.
`Sure. Are ESPs centrifugal pumps?
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`They could be centrifugals.
`A.
`But they aren't necessarily
`Q.
`centrifugal?
`
`It depends. ESP
`Again, it depends.
`A.
`is basically electric submersible pump, so if you,
`if you go by this definition, you can -- one can
`think of other type of pumps maybe, put it through
`a motor, connect it to a motor and put it ~— and
`make it submersible. Generally speaking, they are
`centrifugal.
`
`Q. Have you ever seen an ESP that was
`not a centrifugal pump?
`A.
`I would —— the one that I have seen,
`what I can recall, they were, seeing them, they
`were centrifugal.
`
`Q. And that's the one that you refer to
`with your consulting in the water well
`application?‘
`A.
`In water well application it was, I
`think it was centrifugal, too, yes.
`Q.
`So other than your consulting in the
`water well application in the '90s, do you have
`any other experience with ESPs?
`_
`A.
`Yes. Currently I am, I'm designing
`one for a major ESP manufacturer.
`In fact, I have
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`Q. And is that the same then for the
`a contract.
`Baker Hughes project?
`A.
`For the Baker Hughes we are designing
`the motor and the controller as well.
`
`Is that confidential?
`Q.
`It is confidential. The detai_| of it
`A.
`is confidential to Texas A&M and the, and the
`
`'~O®\.|O'\U'1-hLAJf\J!—*
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`Q. But not the pump?
`A.
`Not the pump.
`Q. You mentioned some other pumps
`earlier, including a reciprocal pump. Do you
`recall that?
`A.
`That's correct.
`Q.
`Do you have any personal experience
`with reciprocal pumps?
`A.
`I can't recall.
`I have done a lot of
`work in my career, and sitting today in here, I am
`working on one currently with another project
`which we recently received from another oil
`company on reciprocal pump, but in the past, I, I
`can't recall.
`It might be in my CV.
`So this other project for an oil
`Q.
`company that involves a reciprocal pump, what is
`your role in that project?
`A.
`We are doing some testing for them on
`the -- this is, of course, it's a pump jack type
`of oil well, so we are doing some tests on the
`motor which is used for this type of applications.
`Priorito your current project, have
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`Q.
`place?
`A.
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`A&M.
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`Q.
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`l\3l\Il\JI\lI\lI\-I
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`you ever designed an ESP?
`1
`I have, I have
`A.
`I am now -- yes.
`2
`another project started last year with Chevron.
`3
`We are designing ESP for Chevron as well and which
`4
`And what is your personal involvement
`Q.
`is, again, we got a, second contract with Chevron
`5
`in that testing?
`this year which is a continuation of that.
`6
`A.
`Well, I supervise the, the lab so I'm
`Q. And when you say that you are -— we
`7
`involved with managing the, the activity.
`are designing an ESP for Chevron, who do you mean
`8
`Q. You don't do the actual testing
`by we?
`9
`yourself, though?
`.
`A. My, my team, my person, I mean, me as
`10
`A.
`Sometimes I do. Of course, I'm
`a, as the lab manager and my Ph.D. students.
`11
`present in the lab very often. Students always
`Q. What is your role in the design of
`12
`discuss with me what they're planning to do or ask
`the ESP for Chevron?
`~
`13
`me for the instruction what to do, what equipment
`A. Well, I provide the students with the
`14
`they need to purchase, how to set up the
`conceptual design and they work on the detail of
`15
`experiment and do the testing and then look at the
`the design.
`16
`report.
`Q. And this is a design for an actual
`17
`But if you ask me that I —— ifI do
`pump, not a pump system; is that correct?
`18
`everything as far as the testing is concerned, I
`A.
`It's the -— well, that's a very good
`19
`would say I -- I'm involved with it so I
`question. We -— my —- our project is for
`20
`understand or I know, tell them what to do or not.
`designing the motor, not the pump.
`21
`Their details, I might not know it or I might know
`Q.
`So the Chevron project you are
`22
`it. Depends on the difficulty of the task and the
`designing a motor for use with an ESP?
`23
`need that I have to be involved or not.
`A.
`For ESP, yeah, that's correct. The
`24
`How about for the three projects
`motor and the drive electronics.
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`And where does that testing take
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`We're doing it in our lab at Texas
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`company because it's a product.
`Q.
`Including the name of the company?
`A.
`The name, it's not in my CV that you
`have it because the contract was signed after I
`
`provided this declaration, but it is in my current
`CV.
`I, I think if you, if you like, I can provide
`you with the name.
`Q.
`Sure.
`If it's in your current CV,
`who is -- what is the company?
`_
`A.
`Baker & Hughes. They are one of the
`largest ESP manufacturer in the world.
`Q.
`Do you know who the other ESP
`manufacturers are?
`
`In U.S. it's Schlumberger. And, in
`A.
`fact, now that you recalled me, I have, long time
`ago I have done presentation at their Schlumberger
`facility which is making‘ESPs. So, in fact, I
`have been with -— seeing ESPs for oil application
`which goes back to, again, late '90s, beginning of
`
`Q 2000.
`
`Q.
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`18
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`you've identified, the one with Baker Hughes, the
`one with Chevron, and the one with this other oil
`company, are you involved with the details of
`those three projects?
`A. Yes, I'm very involved because there
`are, there are very —— there are new ideas
`involved with this project so I have to —— I'm
`involved with it personally in detail of what's
`happening.
`Q. How about progressive cavity pumps
`that you mentioned earlier, do you have —- what's
`your personal experience, if any, with progressive
`cavity pumps?
`A.
`I cannot recall.
`
`So are you familiar with the term
`Q.
`prime as it relates to pumps?
`' A. Yes, I do.
`Q. How about loss of prime?
`A. Yes,-I do.
`Q. What is loss of prime as it relates
`to pumps generally?
`A. Well, loss of prime means that you
`have insufficient flow or too much gas in the
`
`fluid.
`
`_
`Q. And how do you know when the flow is
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`insufficient?
`A. Well, you do measurement testing and
`you look at it, at the flow, and if it is not
`sufficient, you see too much air coming out, the
`efficiency of pump is dropped, so that's loss of
`prime.
`Q. At what point or how far does the
`efficiency of the pump have to drop before it's
`considered loss of prime?
`MR. HALPERN: Objection to form.
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection to form.
`Can you be more specific?
`A.
`Q. Well, you just said that loss of
`prime is defined as insufficient flow or too much
`gas in the fluid, right? And in trying to define
`what is insufficient flow you stated that it's a
`drop in pump efficiency. My question then is, how
`much of a drop in pump efficiency equates to loss
`of prime?
`'
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objection. Calls
`for speculation, lack of foundation.
`A.
`It depends.
`Q. On what?‘
`A.
`It depends on the application; it
`depends on the environment; it depends on the
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`I\)I\Jl\Jl\II\)I\)l—ti—-I—ti—AI—tI—-l—ti—kI—-t-AU'I.I>L»JI\)I-~OLDOo\lO\Ln-I>wI\)i-*OkD00\IO\u'I-huJI\Ji—+
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`pump, the fluid.
`Q.
`So is it more of a desired
`efficiency?
`
`—
`
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection,
`
`speculation, form.
`It
`A. Well, as I said, it depends.
`depends on the application, so the design engineer
`can set it.
`
`So the loss of prime for a particular
`Q.
`pumping application is determined by the design
`engineer?
`
`MR.'CHRISTIE: Objection,
`mischaracterizes the witness’ testimony, form,
`lack of foundation.
`
`A. Well, what I said is the -— a loss‘ of
`prime —- it depends basically.
`It depends on
`the -- what is being pumped, the fluid, the type
`of the pump, the environment, the whole process.
`So it's a combination of all.
`
`Q. Can you give me a specific example
`that you've dealt with personally of a pumping
`, system where the pump lost prime?
`A. My own pool.
`Q. And how did you know that the pump
`had lost prime?
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`I look at the, the, the input of --
`A.
`input filter to the pump, and if I see there is
`air bubble or I, I get the air out and then -- or
`ifI have too much air that's —— I would consider
`
`"as a loss of prime in my pool.
`Q. And you've actually done that?
`_ A.
`I have done it a lot.
`
`Q. How much air is too much air that you
`consider a loss of prime?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection, calls for
`speculation, form, lack of foundation.
`A. Again, it depends what -- in my
`personal view, I don't like to see bubbles.
`Q.
`So any air bubbles is a loss of prime
`for your personal view dealing with your swimming
`pool?
`
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objections.
`In my swimming pool I would -- I do
`A.
`not like to see bubbles in my pumping system.
`Q. Would you consider that a loss of
`prime?
`
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objections.
`
`A. Well, loss of prime depends on the --
`as far as the industry or in my personal pool.
`If
`you're asking about my personal pool, as I said, I
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`22
`V
`do not -- I, when I start my pump, I will try to
`get all the air bubbles out of it.
`Q.
`So for your personal pool you
`consider air bubbles to be loss of prime?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection to form,
`calls for speculation.
`A.
`I --
`MR. CHRISTIE: Mischaracterizes the
`witness‘ prior testimony. You may answer.
`A.
`As I said, I do not like to see air
`bubbles in my pool, in my pumping system because I
`don't like the noise sitting behind my bedroom.
`Q.
`But my question is, is that a loss of
`prime or not?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objections.
`The loss of prime, as I said
`A.
`previously, is too much gas or too little flow.
`Q. You didn't answer my question.
`A.
`I did answer your question.
`Q.
`No.
`I asked you for a very specific
`situation that you've actually dealt with which is
`your personal swimming pool.
`A. Okay.
`Q. And I understand that you don't like
`to see air bubbles in that application, correct?
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`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Do you -consider air bubbles for your
`Q.
`personal swimming pool to be a loss of prime?
`‘MR. CHRISTIE: Objection, asked and
`
`answered.
`
`As I said, in my personal swimming
`A.
`pool I do not like to see air bubbles. And I did
`give you the definition of the -- what the loss of
`prime is.
`Q. But you haven't answered my question
`which is, is loss of prime, in your opinion, air
`bubbles for your swimming pool?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection, badgering.
`
`Objection, asked and answered. Objection, form.
`A.
`I guess I'm very clear on this. The
`loss of prime is when you have too much air
`bubbles or too little flow. Okay. And it's --
`and so that's the definition of the loss of prime.
`
`In my pool, I do not like to see even one
`bubble, okay, but that's my preference.
`It's
`personal preference.
`‘
`Q.
`So loss of prime is personal
`preference for the design engineer?
`A.
`No, it's not.
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection, misstates
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`‘
`the witness‘ prior testimony; asked and answered
`multiple times. Objection, form.
`BY MR. FAHY:
`Q.
`So is the one bubble that you just
`mentioned, is that loss of prime?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objections.
`As I said, it's in my pool, when we
`A.
`are talking about my pool and my preference, okay.
`Q.
`I'm not talking about your
`preference.
`I'm talking about whether you
`consider one air bubble for your personal pool to
`be a loss of prime, yes or no?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objections.
`Badgering the witness; asked and answered multiple
`times.
`
`I guess, as I said, the loss of prime
`A.
`in technical term, as far as the discussion of my
`declaration is concerned, I have given it multiple
`times.
`
`My pool preference in my pool, what I do is
`my personal.
`If you're asking my personal
`opinion, I mean personal for my pool aside from my
`expert view, it's personal. It's different.
`I do
`have an expert view which is what the loss of
`prime is.
`
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`Is your personal view for your pool
`Q.
`that one air bubble is a loss of prime?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objections.
`
`I keep saying theloss of prime term
`A.
`has a meaning. It's too much gas and too little
`flow.
`
`So does one air bubble for your
`Q.
`personal pool, is that too much gas or too little
`flow?
`
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objections.
`Neither.
`
`A.
`
`A So it's not a loss of prime in your
`Q.
`personal opinion?
`A.
`I keep saying that.
`Q. That's the first time you said that.
`A. Well...
`
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection,
`
`argumentative.
`A.
`I guess it's what you say, how you
`want to think about it.
`
`So for your personal-pool
`Q.
`application, in your personal experience, how many
`air bubbles is too much air bubbles that
`
`correlates to a loss of prime?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection to form.
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`28
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`Objection, calls for speculation. Objection, lack
`
`gas?
`
`of foundation. Objection, badgering.
`A.
`It depends.
`It depends.
`Q.
`How would you know if you've lost
`prime in your personal pool pump?
`A.
`If I have too much gas.
`Q. How do you know if you have too much
`'
`A. Well, I see through the skimmer,
`through the filter, I mean, the filter before the
`pump in my pool.
`Q. ‘ What do you see?
`A.
`I see that the flow is not
`continuous, the flow of water is not continuous.
`Q.
`So there is some flow, it's just not
`continuous?
`
`There is some -- there could be no
`A.
`flow or there could be some flow.
`
`So if there's no flow, is that a loss
`Q.
`of prime in your personal opinion?
`A.
`If --
`
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection, calls for
`speculation.
`A.
`As I said, the loss of prime --
`MR. CHRISTIE: Form, asked and
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`a
`answered. You may answer.
`A.
`As I said, the loss of prime is too
`much gas and too little flow, that's what it is.
`Q.
`So you can't give me a yes or no
`answer to the question of if there's no flow, is
`that a loss of prime?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection, badgering.
`Objection --
`A. Maybe I'm not --
`MR. CHRISTIE:
`-- argumentative.
`Objection, lack of foundation. Objection, form.
`A.
`I'm sorry, maybe I'm not giving you
`the answer that you like to hear, I'm giving the
`technical, valid answer.
`Q. Which is that --
`A. Which is that --
`
`—- you have no flow and not have a
`Q.
`loss of prime?
`
`I'm sorry?
`A.
`Is there ever a situation where you
`Q.
`can have zero flow going through a pump and the
`pump is considered primed?
`A
`.A.
`No, it's not. That's not correct.
`That's not what I said.
`
`Q.
`
`So if you were looking at your
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`
`swimming pool and you saw that there was no flow,
`would you consider that to be loss of prime?
`A.‘
`If there, as I said, if there is, if
`there is no flow, it is a loss of prime.
`If it is
`
`too much gas and very little flow, it is loss of
`prime. That's the definition.
`Q. And for your swimming pool
`application, you make that determination visually?
`A.
`From —— in—my, in case of my swimming
`pool, I do it. That's my personal choice.
`Q.
`How about for an ESP, is the
`definition of prime any different for an ESP?
`A.
`No, it's the same definition. Loss
`of prime is too much gas or too little flow of
`fluid. Excuse me.
`
`Q. And how would you determine whether
`there's too much gas or too little flow of fluid
`for an ESP in an oil well application?
`A.
`I can think of looking at the flow.
`Q. How do you know when it's not enough
`flow; is that just a judgment call?
`A.
`I would say the engineers were in the
`production business of oil, they would know it.
`Q. But there isn't an actual gallons per
`minute number of flow above which the pump is
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`prime and below which it is not?
`A. Well, it depends. One can set some
`numbers based on the experience for different
`
`applications, different pumps, different oil well.
`Q.
`So it will change depending on all of
`those variables?
`
`It depends, correct.
`A.
`Speaking of the flow rate, you
`Q.
`mentioned flow rate. You're familiar with the
`term flow‘ rate as it relates -to pumps?
`A.
`\'Correct.
`
`Q. What does flow rate mean?
`A. Well, it means that how would,
`how was -- I mean, it's like gallon per minutes or
`
`per seconds or the flow of liquid passing across
`section of the pipe. Sometime --
`Q.
`So —— go ahead.
`A.
`I'm sorry.
`Q. We can move on. You mentioned
`gallons per minute is the unit of measurement for
`flow rate always a volume per time?
`A. That's what it is, yes. Of course in
`different standards they use different unit.
`In
`
`American older standard, as you know very well, is
`gallon per minute.
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`
`
`Q.
`Can you give me any examples where
`Q. Does each pump have a particular
`that might occur?
`range of flow rates that it's designed to operate
`in?
`A.
`I can -- in oil well application, I
`can think of if, if there's not enough oil -- the
`oil which is seeping in the oil well from the
`formation is slowing down, is, is not coming as or
`
`seeping as it was past year or previously.
`Q. Any other examples where flow rate
`for a particular pump couldldecrease without the
`pump losing prime?
`MR. HALPERN: Objection, foundation.
`In case of an oil well, again, I can
`
`A.
`
`think of if, if, maybe if pump is wearing out, so
`the efficiency of the pump is dropping, that might
`be the case.
`
`Q. Any others?
`A.
`If --
`
`MR. HALPERN: Objection to form,
`
`foundation.
`
`If there is -- if you, of course,
`A.
`change the motor, you can reduce the flow,
`changing the motor speed. There might be other
`possibilities.
`Q.
`How about gas bubbles that are"
`transitory in nature?
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`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection, calls for
`
`kDm\l0‘|U1-h-OuI\)I-I
`
`speculation, lack of foundation, form.
`A.
`If there is a gas bubble, excuse me,
`in the, in the flow, yeah, of course, one can
`think —- I mean, that would affect the flow rate
`of the fluid, so that can reduce the flow rate.
`Q. Without necessarily the pump losing
`prime?
`
`MR. HALPERN: Objection to form.
`
`If, if, if there's -- if there are --
`A.
`if they're not too much of gas that, that you lose
`prime, then yes, you can -- you might have —— you
`can have a reduced flow rate.
`
`‘ Q.
`much.
`
`You can have some gas, just not too
`
`A.
`
`You might have some gas, but from a
`
`30
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`And is that determined by the
`Q.
`manufacturer of the pump or the engineer and the
`application?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Objection, compound.
`Objection, form.
`A.
`I'm sorry, I missed the question.
`
`If
`
`you...
`
`Q.
`A.
`
`I can restate it.
`Restate it.
`
`So if each pump has a particular
`Q.
`range of flow rates that it's designed to operate
`in, is that range determined by the manufacturer
`of the pump or is it determined by the design
`engineer in the field?
`MR. CHRISTIE: Same objections.
`
`Objection, calls for speculation. Objection, lack
`of foundation. You may answer.
`
`The pumps are designed by the
`A.
`manufacturer to operate with certain flow and
`certain head, so...
`
`Q.
`
`Now, flow rate for a particular pump
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`can change over time without losing prime, right?
`MR. HALPERN: Objection, lack of
`foundation. Objection to form.
`A.
`Flow rate can, I can think a flow
`rate might change without losing prime.
`Q.
`Could increase, for example, right?
`A.
`Could increase from the, what the
`manufacturer design for or if you re --
`Q.
`"Yeah, from the normal operating
`condition.
`
`foundation.
`
`MR. HALPERN: Objection, lack of
`.
`
`I can think of it, if it is within
`A.
`the design bound of the pump, one can think that
`under certain circumstances it might go above
`momentarily.
`
`
`
`
`
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`Q. Without losing prime?
`A. Well, the flow has gone up so it's
`opposite of --
`Q.
`Right.
`A.
`-— prime, losing prime.
`Q.
`But the flow could also decrease
`without losing prime?-
`A.
`That's correct. Flow can decrease
`
`pumping point of view, you're an expert, I
`consider you as being -— having a mechanical
`engineer from very good school, you know where you
`are, you don't want to have your efficiency drop
`so, but if you put a few bubbles there, of cours