CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D.
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`Page 1
`
` __________
` K-40 ELECTRONICS, LLC
` Petitioner,
` v.
` ESCORT,INC.
` Patent Owner.
` __________
` Case IPR2013-00240
` Patent 6,670,905
`
` ***CONFIDENTIAL***
`
` DEPOSITION OF JOHN R. GRINDON, PH.D.
` Cincinnati, Ohio
` Thursday, February 27, 2014
`
`Reported by:
`Deborah C. Furey, RPR, CLR
`JOB NO. 71425
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 1
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`Page 1
`
` __________
` K-40 ELECTRONICS, LLC
` Petitioner,
` v.
` ESCORT,INC.
` Patent Owner.
` __________
` Case IPR2013-00240
` Patent 6,670,905
`
` ***CONFIDENTIAL***
`
` DEPOSITION OF JOHN R. GRINDON, PH.D.
` Cincinnati, Ohio
` Thursday, February 27, 2014
`
`Reported by:
`Deborah C. Furey, RPR, CLR
`JOB NO. 71425
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 1
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D.
`
`Page 2
`
` February 27, 2014
` 3:35 p.m.
`
` Deposition of JOHN R. GRINDON, PH.D.,
`held at the offices of Wood, Herron & Evans, LLP,
`2700 Carew Tower, 441 Vine Street, Cincinnati,
`Ohio, 45202, before Deborah C. Furey, a Registered
`Professional Reporter, Certified Livenote
`Reporter, and Notary Public of the State of Ohio.
`
`1
`
`2 3 4 5
`
`6
`
`7 8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 2
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 3
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D.
`APPEARANCES:
`OBLON SPIVAK MCCLELLAND MAIER & NEUSTADT
`Attorneys for Petitioner
`1940 Duke Street
`Alexandria, Virginia, 22314
`BY: SCOTT MCKEOWN, ESQUIRE
`
`WOOD HERRON & EVANS
`Attorneys for Patent Owner
`2700 Carew Tower
`441 Vine Street
`Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
`BY: THOMAS HUMPHREY, ESQUIRE
`BY: JOHN PAUL DAVIS, ESQUIRE
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 3
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 4
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D.
`J O H N R. G R I N D O N, D.Sc.,
` called as a witness, having been first
` duly sworn by a Notary Public, was
` examined and testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MCKEOWN:
` Q. State your name for the record,
` please?
` A. John R Grindon.
` Q. Okay. I won't go through the
` formalities of introducing myself, but I'm an
` attorney here for K-40. And this is similar to
` the deposition -- as we discussed this morning
` on the '721, the same rules apply.
` If you need a break, let me know.
` Let's try not to talk over each other,
` et cetera, et cetera.
` MR. MCKEOWN: This is Exhibit 1001. I
` guess it has the same number as the other
` proceeding but it's a different patent, but
` this is a different deposition. So this is
` U.S. Patent 6,670,905.
` (Exhibit K-40 1001 previously
` marked was offered.)
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 4
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 5
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D.
` MR. MCKEOWN: While we're at it, this
` is 2074. Same number just a different
` report from Dr. Grindon. This is now
` IPR 2013-00240, and this is a declaration
` directed to U.S. Patent 6,670,905.
` (Exhibit K-40 2074 previously
` marked was offered.)
` Q. So, Dr. Grindon, do you recognize
` Exhibit 1001, which is what purports to be
` U.S. patent 6,670,905?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. So it is that patent, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And do you recognize Exhibit 2074?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. What is this exhibit?
` A. This is a declaration that I prepared
` in this matter.
` Q. Okay. And this matter being
` IPR 2013-00240, is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So that is your signature on
` the last page there?
` A. Yes, it is.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 5
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` Q. Okay. So I'll be asking a lot of
` questions you've already heard, but
` unfortunately that's what we have to do here.
` Have any of your positions or opinions
` or statements in this declaration changed since
` you executed on February 10th?
` A. No, except there may be a few
` typographical or drafting errors.
` Q. Okay. So you're sure nothing has
` changed substantially, aside from typographical
` issues that we'll point out as we go along?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. And I won't go through some of
` the other questions, I think you said this
` morning that roughly you spent an equal amount
` of time on this declaration, reviewing it,
` preparing it, as you did the '721; is that
` generally accurate?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And the last paragraph of the
` declaration, Paragraph 106, you signed this
` declaration under penalty of perjury; is that
` correct?
` A. I'll turn to that. Yes.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 6
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 7
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` Q. Okay. You stated this morning that
` you are not a patent attorney, is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And you're not a patent agent?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And your current vocation is a
` consultant, is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And within the past year your
` consulting work has been primarily consulting
` for patent cases?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So this morning I asked you generally
` to describe the work flow for the '721
` declaration. Was that work flow any different
` for this declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. And you stated earlier this morning
` that you met Mr. Orr the first time in the 2009
` time frame, is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And your declaration discusses
` activities and efforts of Mr. Orr prior to the
` 2009 time frame, is that correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 7
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` A. Yes, it does.
` Q. Okay. And you did not participate in
` any of those activities or observe any of those
` activities?
` A. I didn't observe the activities prior
` to 2009. I've observed recreations of those
` activities since.
` Q. Okay. So let's switch to your report,
` Paragraph 1. You state in the second sentence
` there, as you did in the '721 declaration, that
` you have submitted -- let me read it exactly.
` "I am submitting this report in
` support of Escort's assertion that its patent
` 6,670,905 is valid, which counters the opinions
` of Requestor's K40 technical expert,
` Dr. Bartone, set forth in his opening Report
` dated April 6th, 2013."
` That's an accurate statement?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And this morning we also looked at
` another report that you did in the Fleming
` versus Escort litigation.
` Do you remember that report?
` A. Yes.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 8
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 9
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` Q. So we'll mark this one.
` MR. HUMPHREY: For the record we have
` objected this morning to the use -- to the
` manner of use of what is Exhibit 1014 and we
` have the same objection today, so I'll just
` note that in the record for preservation
` purposes.
` MR. MCKEOWN: It's noted.
` (Exhibit K-40 1014, Expert report
` of John R. Grindon, D.Sc, no
` Bates stamp, was marked for
` identification.)
` Q. Dr. Grindon, do you recognize
` Exhibit 1014, which you've just been handed?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And at Paragraph 1 of this report you
` state that -- in the second sentence -- I am
` submitting this report in support of Escort's
` defenses and counterclaims that United States
` Reissue Patent Numbers RE 39,038 ('the 038
` patent') and RE40,653 ('the '653 patent') are
` invalid and unenforceable."
` A. Yes.
` Q. So this report, like your report for
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 9
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 10
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` the PTO, was also analyzing the patent validity,
` is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Let's go to Paragraph 9 of
` Exhibit 2074, which is your declaration in the
` USPTO proceeding, IPR 2013-00240.
` Can you read that first sentence in
` Paragraph 9?
` A. Yes. I have some errors in the
` sentence but it says, "It is my understanding
` that it is K40's burden to prove that it is more
` likely than not that each claim under review is
` invalid over the Fleming '798 and Hoffberg '554
` prior art that is the subject of this review."
` Q. You said there were some mistakes
` there?
` A. Yes, I would simply rewrite this to
` say it's my understanding that it is K-40's
` burden to prove that each claim under review is
` invalid over the Fleming '798, Hoffberg '544
` prior art that is the subject of this review.
` Q. So what are you taking out of that
` sentence?
` A. "It is more likely than not."
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 10
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 11
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` Q. Why are you removing that language?
` A. Because that is not my understanding
` Q. What do you mean it's not your
` understanding of what?
` A. Of K-40's burden. I think some words
` got inflated.
` Q. So you didn't apply that standard in
` this declaration?
` A. The standard as it's stated here?
` Q. Correct.
` A. My actual understanding is that it's a
` higher bar than what this would say. K-40's
` burden is more than simply being more likely
` than not that each claim is invalid.
` Q. And when I asked you about this
` language this morning, you said that you were
` positive that this was correct?
` A. I don't think so. I think you're
` reading was correct, but I don't recall.
` My recollection now is that on a first
` reading I didn't carefully look at what it was
` saying, that I was merely saying that the
` wording is as it's printed. But then I looked
` at it again, as you recall I mentioned this
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 11
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` isn't quite right the way it was.
` Q. Uh-huh. But it is still your opinion
` that the -- strike that.
` But it's still your opinion that
` K-40's burden, in your revised version of the
` sentence, is to demonstrate invalidity of both
` Fleming and Hoffberg?
` A. It's my understanding it's K-40's
` burden to show the invalidity.
` Q. All right. So Paragraph 10 of
` Exhibit 2074, we discussed this morning the
` meaning of the term "medium."
` Can you remind me what you said about
` that?
` A. Yes. This is -- Paragraph 10,
` discussing the ordinary skill and the relevant
` art. The sentence somewhere in the middle of
` the paragraph says, "In my opinion, the level of
` skill and the art relevant to the
` patents-in-suit is medium," and then I go on to
` explain specifically what I mean by that.
` And in the remainder of the paragraph,
` which I can read if you're interested --
` Q. No. That's okay. But is there a
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 12
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 13
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` difference between medium and ordinary, or are
` they saying the same thing?
` A. They're two different things. What
` we're wanting to do here is to define the person
` of ordinary skill in the art with regard to the
` patent, so who would be looking at these
` patents.
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. And my assessment is that this would
` require an ordinary level or, rather, a medium
` level of skill in the case of these particular
` patents and prior art pieces.
` Q. So referring back to 1014, which is
` your expert report in the Fleming/Escort
` litigation -- we discussed the patent at Page 50
` this morning, it's listed there in Number 1015,
` Silverman, U.S. Patent Number 6,201,493.
` Do you remember that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` MR. HUMPHREY: This specifically is
` the issue of objection, correct?
` MR. MCKEOWN: Uh-huh. Noted.
` MR. HUMPHREY: Right.
` Q. Can you read Paragraph 233 aloud,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 13
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 14
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` please?
` A. Sure. "It is my opinion that
` Silverman anticipates certain claims of the '038
` patent as described below. In this regard, I
` have been instructed to assume that Silverman is
` prior art to the '038 patent. Regardless, the
` application that issued as U.S. Patent
` Number 6,201,493 was filed on May 28th, 1999,
` only a few weeks after the filing date of the
` application that issued as the '798 patent. As
` such, it is my opinion that Silverman, and the
` disclosures described below, constitute evidence
` of what would be obvious for one of ordinary
` skill in the art to try at the time of the
` filing date of the application that issued as
` the '798 patent."
` Q. Thank you. And when you wrote that
` patent, you intended to be truthful an accurate?
` A. Yes, I did.
` (Exhibit K-40 1015, U.S. Patent
` Number 6,201,493, no Bates stamp,
` was marked for examination.)
` Q. Dr. Grindon, Exhibit 1015 is U.S.
` Patent 6,201,493, is that correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 14
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` A. Yes.
` MR. HUMPHREY: We have an objection
` for 1015, put that on the record.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Noted.
` Q. And that's the same patent that's
` listed at the bottom of Page 50 of Exhibit 2074,
` your declaration in Fleming versus Escort, is
` that correct?
` MR. HUMPHREY: That's 1014.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Sorry. 1014.
` THE WITNESS: State the Exhibit
` Number 2 again, please?
` Q. So Exhibit 1014 is your declaration in
` the Fleming/Escort litigation. And on Page 50
` there's a patent listed there, toward the
` bottom, it's called "Silverman U.S. Patent
` Number 6,201,493."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, so this is the report filed
` several years ago in the Fleming versus Escort
` case.
` Q. So the question is: Is the Silverman
` patent listed on Page 50 the same as
` Exhibit 1015?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 15
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 16
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. Let's move to Paragraph 236 of Exhibit
` 1014. Can you read that paragraph?
` A. I'm sorry. The paragraph again?
` Q. 236, it's on Page 51.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Can you read that out loud for us?
` A. Yes. "Silverman teaches that, quote,
` 'a radar detector is equipped with a positional
` tracking system, such as a global positioning
` satellite (GPS) system, which can track the
` location of the vehicle in which the detector is
` located and a processor enabling the detector to
` learn about the location, the sources of false
` alarms,' close quote. Further Silverman teaches
` quote, 'If desired a signal strength profile,
` frequency band of the energy causing the alarm
` and/or time of day information can also be used
` to distinguish false from real alarms,' close
` quote. Thus, Silverman teaches an incoming
` radar signal having a frequency and the signal
` strength. (Abstract)."
` Q. Thank you. Did you intend that to be
` truthful and accurate when you wrote it?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 16
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. Let's go to 248 of the same document,
` that's 1014. That's the same exhibit, 1014.
` A. All right. I have it.
` Q. Can you read that paragraph out loud,
` please?
` A. Sure. "Silverman teaches that, open
` quote, 'On the other hand, if no match exists
` when the current location is compared to stored
` locations in database 155, or even if there is a
` match, that the other compared information, such
` as frequency band, is different, a NO result
` occurs in step 213, and the process proceeds to
` step 215, where the alarm generator 105 is
` activated. Column 3, Lines 54 to 59."
` Q. When you wrote that you intended that
` paragraph to be truthful and accurate?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. Okay. So we talked about a lot of
` these questions this morning, but just for the
` sake of completeness we need to go over them
` again.
` Can you explain the legal standard for
` reduction of practice?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 17
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 18
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` A. Again, that, not being an attorney, as
` we've established, I can just give you my own
` words regarding that. With respect to a written
` document, reduction in practice to me would
` constitute describing something in sufficient
` detail so that a person of ordinary skill in the
` art at the time could practice the invention;
` and with regard to a physical demonstration, it
` would constitute a demonstration having the
` functionality claimed.
` Q. In Paragraph 86 of your declaration,
` which is Exhibit 2074, you discuss a
` demonstration that's conducted on February 7,
` 2014, is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Who was present during that
` demonstration?
` A. Steve Orr.
` Q. Anyone else?
` A. Yes. Joe Davis -- this is the -- this
` is the -- that would have been Tom Humphrey.
` Q. So Mr. Orr and Mr. Humphrey?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Anyone else?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 18
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 19
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` A. I don't think so.
` Q. So who was driving the car?
` A. Wait a minute. Let me rewind all of
` this.
` Q. Sure.
` A. This is the lab monitoring test. So
` this particular test only Mr. Humphrey was
` present.
` Q. Did you do any other road tests?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Directed to Mr. Orr's work or road
` tests generally?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. So you did another road test related
` to Mr. Orr's work?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When was that?
` A. Let me think. I don't know if I have
` the actual date with me right now. This would
` have been sometime previous to the road test.
` Q. A month previous, a year previous?
` A. Weeks.
` Q. Weeks. And what was the purpose of
` that road test?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 19
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 20
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` A. That was a different test. That was
` the one to test the GRAPH3 software operating
` with a GPS guard card, a radar detector and a
` laptop computer all, as close as we have been
` able to determine, were used by Mr. Orr in his
` 1996 road test that he integrated into the GPS
` radar system.
` Q. And who was present during that road
` test?
` A. That test was John Davis, Steve Orr,
` Tom Humphrey and myself.
` Q. What was Mr. Orr's role?
` A. Part of his role was to hold the
` laptop computer on his lap.
` Q. Anything else?
` A. There is a resource to explain things
` as needed.
` Q. Is there anyone else, other than those
` gentlemen, present?
` A. No.
` Q. Was there anybody on the phone during
` this test?
` A. I'm not recalling any phone calls.
` Q. So you testified earlier this morning
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 20
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 21
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` or earlier this afternoon, I should say, that
` the last known edit date of GRAPH3.BAS was May
` 2012; is that right?
` A. That's was my recollection. I didn't
` have the information in front of me, but that's
` the best I can recall.
` Q. I'll represent to you that Mr. Orr
` said it was May 1st, 2012 yesterday, so, you're
` consistent with him.
` Let's move back the Paragraph 96,
` Exhibit 2074.
` A. Okay. I have it.
` Q. And so you've read this paragraph in
` the other declaration, I believe it's identical,
` and it states that there's a small amount of
` code in GRAPH3.BAS that was recreated, is that
` correct?
` A. A small amount of code compared to the
` software that it was recreated from, which is
` the TST4600.
` Q. Okay. And you said this morning that
` would be roughly 10 percent?
` A. That's my estimate.
` Q. So 10 percent difference in size, I
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 21
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 22
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` guess?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And the additional lines of code, are
` they listed anywhere in this declaration?
` A. Only by reference to Mr. Orr's report.
` Q. Okay. But you testified this morning
` that essentially what these additional lines of
` code did was described in this paragraph, and
` roughly begins at the language in the middle of
` that paragraph " -- to interface the program to
` the Rockwell GPS card and to the laptop computer
` display, and to perform location-based lockouts
` in order to integrate the GPS data with the
` radar detector so that he could perform
` location-based lockouts of false alarms for his
` road test demonstrations."
` Is that right?
` A. I believe you read that correctly.
` Q. Okay. All right. And so you
` testified earlier that in terms of that code
` that's referenced there in Paragraph 96 -- I'll
` get to the right page -- so have you ever seen
` the entirety of that code in any other file,
` other than GRAPH3.BAS?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 22
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 23
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` A. I'm not sure what you're asking, but I
` don't know of any other file of a different name
` that has the identical code as GRAPH3.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I'm not saying there isn't any, BUT I
` don't know of any.
` Q. All right. Paragraph 103, I think we
` discussed the companion paragraph in the other
` declaration this morning, but can you read
` Paragraph 103 for me?
` A. Sure. "I believe, in view of the
` historical software and the data created by
` Mr. Orr in 1992 and 1996, that it would have
` been obvious to one of ordinary skill having
` access to this historical software and data to
` create the revisions to TST4600K.BAS to
` implement the historical demonstration recreated
` by Mr. Orr."
` Q. Thank you. So when you say "obvious,"
` are you referring to the '96 time frame?
` A. Yes, I'm referring to that time frame
` that someone who wanted to do what Mr. Orr
` wanted to do would be able to do it.
` Q. Uh-huh. And we're going back to
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 23
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` Exhibit 1001, the '905 patent has a priority
` chain that ends in 1999; is that correct,
` June 14th, 1999?
` A. Let me see my exhibits. 1001. So the
` priority dates go back to June 14th, 1999.
` Q. But Paragraph 103 is talking about
` three years earlier, correct, 1996?
` A. Approximately, yes. A little more
` than three years, probably.
` Q. Let's go back to -- it looks like
` Paragraph 12 of your declaration, Exhibit 2074.
` So, again, we discussed both
` Paragraphs 12 and 13, they're companion
` paragraphs, in the other proceeding. I believe
` both of those paragraphs were numbered 12.
` So this morning you stated that when
` you say the combination in Paragraph 12 that
` references a radar detector, a GPS receiver, a
` central processor, memory, and user interface
` that included a map, you're saying that it's the
` claim combination that is not -- so the claim
` combination of the '905 patent that is not shown
` in Hoffberg, is that correct?
` A. That's right.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 24
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` Q. But the combination radar detector,
` GPS receiver, et cetera, is shown in Hoffberg,
` it's just, according to you, not in the claim
` manner, is that correct?
` MR. HUMPHREY: Objection. Foundation,
` If it's intended to be a foundation
` question.
` THE WITNESS: Those individual
` elements are found in Hoffberg.
` Q. And I guess did we do Hoffberg as an
` exhibit yet? I don't know if we did.
` (Exhibit K-40 1002 previously
` marked was offered.)
` MR. MCKEOWN: And Hoffberg, just so
` the record is clear, is this Exhibit 1002?
` Q. The Exhibit 1002 is the Hoffberg
` reference that you're discussing in Paragraph 12
` of your declaration, is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And so, again, the elements:
` Radar detector, GPS receiver, central processor
` memory, and user interface that included a map,
` are they shown in Figure 1 of Hoffberg?
` A. Let's take a look at Figure 1. It
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 25
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 26
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` shows some of those things in Figure 1.
` Q. Okay. What's missing?
` A. Just in the abstract, the term radar
` detector is shown in Figure 1, the GPS receiver
` is shown, a processor is shown, a memory is
` shown, and a user interface.
` There's no indication in Figure 1 that
` the user interface includes a map or anything
` else in particular.
` Q. Okay. So let's refer to Column 3 of
` this exhibit, starting at -- looks to be Line 46
` or 47 there, going through to the next column,
` let's say 12, yeah. Do you want to spend a
` minute and read that?
` A. Sure. All right. I'm finished.
` Q. In your opinion does that section
` discuss a user interface that would include a
` map?
` A. Yes. Now, this is the Hoffberg
` reference, and there's a background --
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. -- section. So it's discussing
` particularly the GPS system that was available
` at the time.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 26
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 27
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. And some of the uses of it, which
` included map displays.
` Q. Okay. Let's go back to Exhibit 1014,
` which is your report in the Fleming/Escort
` litigation, Paragraph 325.
` A. I have it.
` Q. It's lengthy but could you read that
` paragraph?
` A. It begins "Hoffberg teaches"?
` Q. Exactly.
` A. "Hoffberg teaches the use and
` capabilities of a radar detector with GPS
` technology. It discloses that, open quote,
` 'applications of GPS include...vehicle
` navigation.' close quote. For this purpose
` Hoffberg teaches that, open quote, 'the user may
` also need to store and display locations or
` calculate range and varying...' close quote.
` Column 3, Lines 47 through 62. To this end
` Hoffberg teaches that, open quote, 'the first
` system makes use of stored map displays, wherein
` the maps of a predetermined area are stored in
` the in-vehicle computer and displayed to the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 27
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 28
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` vehicle operator or driver. The maps, combined
` with information describing the location where
` the vehicle started and where it is to go, will
` highlight the direction and the driver will have
` to read the display and follow the route. One
` such stored map display system was offered by
` General Motors in their 1994 Oldsmobile, using
` Global Positioning System, GPS, satellites and
` dead reckoning techniques and likely map
` matching to determine a precise location,' close
` quote. Column 7, Lines 12 through 22. "Further
` facilitating this, Hoffberg teaches that, open
` quote, 'a compass located in the vehicle then
` gives a compass direction to the destination
` address. Such a compass direction is shown
` in graphics as an arrow on a display unit,
` indicating the direction a driver should go,'
` close quote. Column 7, Lines 49 through 54."
` Q. Thank you. When you wrote that, you
` intended it to be truthful and accurate; is that
` correct?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. Moving back to Exhibit 2074, Paragraph
` 13, there's a statement there about the Fleming
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 28
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 29
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grindon, Ph.D..
` reference.
` (Exhibit K-40 1003 previously
` marked was offered.)
` Q. I've handed you Exhibit 1003, it's
` U.S. Patent Number 6,204,798 to Fleming.
` Is that the Fleming reference you're
` discussing in Paragraph 13?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So in this paragraph we're also
` listing the same components, a police radar
` detector that included a GPS receiver, a
` processor, memory, and an alert circuit. I
` guess they're not the same elements. I'm sorry.
` There's a listing of elements, a
` police radar detector that included a GPS
` receiver, processor, memory, and alert circuit.
` Do you see those elements?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you disagree with Dr. Bartone,
` that those elements are shown in Fleming, is
` that correct?
` A. My disagreement is as stated, and it's
` not what you just said.
` Q. So when you say "combination," you
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`K40 Exhibit 1020, pg. 29
`IPR2013-00240
`
`
`
`Page 30
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` CONFIDENTIAL -- John R. Grind
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
