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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ___________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ___________________________
`
` ZYNGA INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` PERSONALIZED MEDIA COMMUNICATIONS LLC
` Patent Owner
` ___________________________
`Case No. IPR2013-00162 - U.S. Patent No. 7,908,638
`Case No. IPR2013-00164 - U.S. Patent No. 7,797,717
`Case No. IPR2013-00171 - U.S. Patent No. 7,734,251
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF GERALD T. HOLTZMAN
` Sugar Land, Texas
` Wednesday, January 15, 2014
`
`Reported by:
`MICHAEL E. MILLER, FAPR, RDR, CRR
`Notary Public
`JOB NO. 69039
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ___________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ___________________________
`
` ZYNGA INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` PERSONALIZED MEDIA COMMUNICATIONS LLC
` Patent Owner
` ___________________________
`Case No. IPR2013-00162 - U.S. Patent No. 7,908,638
`Case No. IPR2013-00164 - U.S. Patent No. 7,797,717
`Case No. IPR2013-00171 - U.S. Patent No. 7,734,251
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF GERALD T. HOLTZMAN
` Sugar Land, Texas
` Wednesday, January 15, 2014
`
`Reported by:
`MICHAEL E. MILLER, FAPR, RDR, CRR
`Notary Public
`JOB NO. 69039
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` January 15, 2014
` 8:55 a.m.
`
` Oral deposition of GERALD T. HOLTZMAN,
`held at the offices of Personalized Media
`Communications LLC, 14090 Southwest Freeway,
`Suite 450, Sugar Land, Texas, before Michael E.
`Miller, Fellow of the Academy of Professional
`Reporters, Registered Diplomate Reporter,
`Certified Realtime Reporter and Notary Public in
`and for the State of Texas.
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
` JONES DAY
` BY: LOUIS TOUTON, ESQUIRE
` 555 South Flower Street
` Los Angeles, California 90071
` Counsel for Zynga Inc.
`
` GOODWIN PROCTER
` BY: STEPHEN SCHREINER, ESQUIRE
` 901 New York Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20001
` Counsel for Personalized Media
` Communications LLC
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` MARK KING, ESQUIRE
` Personalized Media Communications LLC
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` G. HOLTZMAN
` PROCEEDINGS
` (January 15, 2014 at 8:55 a.m.)
` (Holtzman Deposition Exhibit 2020E
`marked.)
` GERALD T. HOLTZMAN,
` having been duly sworn,
` testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. Let me just put this declaration,
`Exhibit 2020E, in front of you, but I'm not going
`to ask about it right at the beginning.
` So what's your name?
` A. Gerald Holtzman.
` Q. What is your current position?
` A. President and general counsel of
`Personalized Media Communications.
` Q. You've been involved with PMC in
`various capacities since 1996?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. When did you become president and
`general -- well, when did you become president?
` A. I believe sometime during 2012.
` Q. When did you become general counsel?
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` A. Nominally, 1997 or so.
` Q. For a period after 1997, were you
`doing things other than being general counsel of
`PMC?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And tell me about that.
` A. I had a private law practice in
`Houston, Texas through approximately 2001.
` Q. How were you -- what were you engaged
`in from approximately 2001 until approximately
`2012?
` A. Various activities on behalf of
`Personalized Media Communications, which I will
`refer to as "PMC."
` Q. Okay. What kind of activities were
`those during the period 2001 to 2012?
` A. Supervision of all matters pertaining
`to the legal affairs of the company, including
`patent prosecution, litigation and patent license
`activities.
` THE WITNESS: Can you hear me all
`right?
` THE REPORTER: Yes, sir.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
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` Q. Prior to 1997, what training did you
`have in -- concerning patents?
` A. None, except for certain discussions
`with John Harvey and his outside counsel from
`time to time.
` Q. Did you act as a lawyer for PMC or
`some other company affiliated with John Harvey
`before 1997?
` A. No.
` Q. So the discussions you were talking
`about were social in nature?
` A. Purely personal.
` Q. Are you registered with the
`U.S. Patent & Trademark Office?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you acted as a lawyer in patent
`matters for any entity other than PMC?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you own part of PMC?
` A. I'm sorry?
` Q. Do you own part of PMC directly or
`indirectly?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Please tell us about that.
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` A. I own part of PMC indirectly.
` Q. And how is it -- how do you
`indirectly own part of PMC?
` A. I own part of PMC indirectly by
`owning a portion of a company known as the Harvey
`Family Limited Liability Company. That company
`owns a portion of PMC.
` Q. What portion of PMC does Harvey
`Family LLC own?
` A. It would be an estimate, because I
`don't know exactly.
` Q. Okay.
` A. 56 to 57%, I believe.
` Q. What portion of Harvey Family LLC do
`you own?
` A. Again, a guess, somewhere around 6%.
`I don't think the numbers work out, because I
`think I own approximately 4% of the PMC interest
`as attributed back through the Harvey Family LLC.
` Q. Okay. I think it -- it gives a
`ballpark.
` A. It's not too far off.
` Q. It's not too far off.
` A. Right.
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` Q. Prior to owning a portion of Harvey
`Family LLC, did you own a part of PMC directly or
`indirectly by some other mechanism?
` A. Prior to my interest in Harvey
`Family LLC, I had an ownership interest in PMC
`that was converted into an interest in the Harvey
`Family Company.
` Q. And was that interest more or less
`commensurate in size with your share now?
` A. It was smaller.
` Q. Smaller. Okay.
` How much money have you received to
`date on account of your interest either in PMC or
`your now converted interest in Harvey Family LLC?
` MR. SCHREINER: You know, Mr. Touton,
`we're giving you latitude here. I understand
`you're exploring the background, but you're
`limited to the scope of the declaration, and
`you're really getting off the reservation here.
`All these matters are well outside the scope of
`the declaration.
` MR. TOUTON: Well, I don't agree.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. If you want to give an estimate or a
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`ballpark, that's fine, I'm just trying to
`establish what your personal interests are.
` MR. SCHREINER: I mean, I'll withdraw
`my objection if you can tell me where in the
`declaration these matters are addressed.
` MR. TOUTON: I think the filing of a
`declaration calls into question automatically
`whether the witness has bias and the like.
` MR. SCHREINER: So there's nothing in
`the declaration on these matters? Okay.
` I'll let you answer, Gerald.
` THE WITNESS: Could you rephrase the
`question please -- or not rephrase, but restate.
`Oh, it's here. Direct me to it.
` MR. TOUTON: Well, I'll read it to
`you just so we have it in the record.
` THE WITNESS: Thanks.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. How much money have you received to
`date on account of your interest in either PMC or
`your now converted interested in Harvey
`Family LLC?
` A. A couple million dollars.
` Q. And is it accurate to say that you
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`stand to gain financially to the extent that
`PMC's patents are upheld?
` A. Whether the patents at issue in this
`IPR are upheld or not will likely have no effect
`whatsoever on any compensation that I receive
`from PMC.
` That said, it would be disingenuous
`for me to say that there is no relationship
`between the patents being upheld. I, of course,
`prefer that they are.
` Q. And if, let's say, all of PMC's
`currently unexpired patents were struck down,
`that would be -- that would have a negative
`financial effect on you, wouldn't it?
` A. That would be a bad day.
` Q. All right. Have you taken any role
`now or in the past in drafting patent claims for
`PMC?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you had any role in approving
`patent claims for PMC, that is, approving their
`submission to the patent office?
` A. No.
` Q. All right. Let me now turn you to
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`Exhibit 2020E, which you have before you, and ask
`you to review it briefly, and then my question is
`going to be: Is this a declaration that you
`signed?
` A. I can spend a lot of time reviewing
`it page by page, but if you represent to me that
`you believe it to be the full and complete
`declaration I filed, I'll say it certainly
`appears to be.
` Q. Well, I'll represent that it's what I
`got from the patent office that had been filed on
`behalf of PMC.
` A. Yes, this is it.
` Q. All right. How did you come to sign
`this declaration?
` A. I came to sign this declaration once
`it was completed.
` Q. Okay. Well, when did you first hear
`about the possibility that you were going to sign
`this -- have a declaration that would be given?
` A. I was advised by counsel.
` Q. And which counsel was that?
` A. Our counsel representing PMC in this
`IPR proceeding, Goodwin Procter.
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` Q. Okay. And what role did you have in
`the preparation of the declaration?
` MR. SCHREINER: Mr. Holtzman, just on
`this line of questioning, I want to caution you
`not to get into the substance of any
`communications with counsel. You can just answer
`who you met with, when you met with them, where
`you met with them, but not any substance.
` THE WITNESS: Okay.
` A. This declaration resulted from a
`process of back-and-forth questioning and
`inclusion by outside counsel and myself with
`regard to the matters contained within it.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. And at the end of that process, did
`you review the declaration to ensure that you
`agreed with everything in it?
` A. I did.
` Q. Now, this particular declaration
`concerns the '717 patent, which is one of three
`patents as to which you submitted declarations on
`the same day.
` Do you recall that there were two
`other declarations that were quite similar to
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`this?
` A. I do recall it, yes.
` Q. And those related to the '638
`and '251 patents; is that your memory?
` A. That is my recollection.
` Q. Was there anything different about
`the general process of preparation of the other
`two declarations than this one?
` A. Nothing different about the process.
` Q. On page number 3 of your declaration
`in paragraph 6, you refer to the inventions of
`the '717 patent as "platform agnostic."
` Can you describe what you mean by
`"platform agnostic"?
` A. Sure. What I mean by the term
`"platform agnostic," Mr. Touton, is that I
`believe that the inventions are relevant and
`appropriate and applicable to any communications
`network over which they may be -- over which the
`sense of the inventions is presented.
` For example, what I mean by that is I
`believe that the Harvey patents, PMC patents,
`particularly in this case the '717 patent, are
`relevant whether or not the output resulting from
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`the inventions is through a radio network,
`through a traditional television network,
`Internet or cellular network. So in that sense,
`the platform, the network over which these
`inventions are carried is -- it's irrelevant,
`and, therefore, I use the term "agnostic."
` Q. The '717 patent -- let me ask you
`this.
` Does the '717 patent share the same
`specification with other patents owned by PMC?
` A. Yes, it does.
` Q. Approximately how many others have
`the same specification?
` A. At this juncture, issued, I believe
`somewhere in excess of 60. We have new patents
`issuing all the time, and I don't know exactly
`today how many there are, but it shares a
`specification with over 60 patents.
` Q. Does PMC have additional patents
`pending with the same specification --
`applications pending, I should say?
` A. Yes, in excess of 20, I believe.
` Q. Did PMC file a large number of patent
`applications in 1995, all having this
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`specification?
` A. What do you mean by "large number"?
` Q. Say over 300.
` A. Not to my knowledge.
` Q. How many do you believe PMC filed in
`1995?
` A. Certainly, likely in excess of 200.
`I think there were a number of applications that
`had been filed in 1993 and 1994, but these
`predated my participation, so that's just based
`on what I've been told.
` Q. Since approximately 1997, though,
`you've been more aware of what's been going on
`regarding PMC's prosecution activities?
` MR. SCHREINER: Mr. Touton, I'm going
`to object to this line of questioning, again, as
`going outside of the scope of his declaration.
`Mr. Holtzman submitted a declaration directed to
`commercial success via the licensing program,
`industry praise via the Ocean Tomo study, and
`commercial success by virtue of the forward
`citations to the patent family. And you're now
`delving into filing strategy, strategies from,
`you know, many years ago. It's completely
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`outside the scope of his declaration.
` MR. TOUTON: Okay. Well --
` MR. SCHREINER: And the point of the
`rule --
` MR. TOUTON: It will be tied up, I
`assure you that there's a point to this that's
`relevant to his declaration.
` MR. SCHREINER: The point of the rule
`is, you understand, we really don't have an
`opportunity to respond.
` MR. TOUTON: Fine.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. Mr. Holtzman, since approximately
`1997, have you been relatively aware of what's
`been going on regarding PMC's prosecution
`activities?
` A. The phrase "relatively aware" is one
`that would need explication.
` Q. Okay. That's fair.
` A. I know that applications have been
`presented. I know that responses have been made
`to the patent office during examination. I know
`that active examination has taken place. In
`fact, I know that very active prosecution of all
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`of the patents issued since 2010 has taken place,
`but with regard to the specifics of each, I have
`no personal knowledge.
` Q. You have knowledge about suspensions
`of prosecution of many of these patents?
` A. I --
` MR. SCHREINER: Object to the form.
` A. I know that it occurred.
` MR. SCHREINER: I'm going to object
`again, outside the scope. If you can tie it
`specifically to the patents at issue --
` MR. TOUTON: I will.
` MR. SCHREINER: -- and the IPRs --
` MR. TOUTON: I will.
` MR. SCHREINER: -- that's a
`legitimate question. Otherwise, it's outside the
`scope.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. In your --
` MR. SCHREINER: Also, excuse me,
`we'll also state an objection for relevance.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. In your declaration, you refer --
` (Mr. King enters the deposition
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`room.)
` (Discussion off the record.)
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. Are you familiar with the licenses
`that have been granted to patents within the
`Harvey portfolio?
` A. Some of them. I'm familiar with all
`of them, but I'm more familiar with some of them.
` Q. Okay. Thank you, because you had me
`stuck there.
` In paragraph 9 of your declaration,
`which we've marked here as Exhibit 2020E, you
`refer to a license to patents and applications
`that was granted to StarSight Telecast on an
`exclusive basis, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. First, who granted that license, what
`company?
` A. That may have been a predecessor
`company to PMC known as Personalized Mass Media
`Corporation. I believe it was the licensor.
` Q. And at the end of paragraph 9, you
`refer to a field of use. What generally was the
`field of use of the StarSight license?
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` A. To my knowledge, as a nontechnical
`person, the scope of that license enabled the
`navigation between channels and a program guide
`in order to select that channel.
` Q. And did this -- this related to
`television technology generally, this field,
`particular field of use?
` A. That's the way it was utilized at the
`time. I don't think it was -- I don't recall
`whether it was specifically addressed to
`television. It may well have been.
` Q. But as best as you understand, it
`was -- the point of the field of use had to do
`with technology, television technology?
` A. At that time, yes.
` Q. You mentioned that that license was
`granted in 1994. At the time had the '717 patent
`been applied for?
` A. I don't remember the exact
`application date of the '717. I don't know. You
`can tell me, but I don't know.
` Q. I don't recall the exact date either.
` A. It would have been at or about the
`time.
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` Q. And the same question with regard to
`the '251 and '638 patents, would your answer the
`be same?
` A. I don't know the exact dates of
`application. I know that some of the patents
`referred to generically as the "1995 patents"
`were applied for in '93 and '94 and could well
`have been applied for at the time the StarSight
`license was issued, but I don't know for sure.
` Q. And you don't know whether that's
`true of the '717, '251 or '638 patents?
` A. No personal knowledge.
` Q. I think the patent office could
`probably figure out the application date.
` A. It's there somewhere.
` Q. All right. In paragraph 10 you refer
`to StarSight sublicensing the patents to Thomson
`Consumer Electronics Inc. for making DSS
`products?
` What, to your understanding, are DSS
`products?
` A. Digital satellite system.
` Q. Is that television?
` A. Yes. It was at the time.
`
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` Q. You say Thomson agreed to pay
`per-unit royalties for DSS receiver units. Do
`you have any knowledge or information about
`whether StarSight's sublicense to PMC was
`stand-alone or part of a transaction in which
`other patents were also licensed to Thomson?
` MR. SCHREINER: I think you meant
`StarSight sublicense to Thomson.
` MR. TOUTON: I'm sorry, to Thomson,
`yes, I did.
` Do you have the question in mind or
`should I restate it?
` Let me restate it.
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. When StarSight sublicensed to
`Thomson, did it also license other patents to
`Thomson that were not owned by PMC?
` A. I don't know.
` Q. Do you know whether StarSight had its
`own patent portfolio?
` A. I have been told that it did.
` Q. And is it your understanding that
`StarSight's own patent portfolio involved patents
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`relevant to program guides for television?
` A. I know -- I have been told
`StarSight's patents pertained to program guides.
`I don't know that they were restricted just to
`television.
` Q. In paragraph 11, you discuss a
`license that PMC granted to Sony in October of
`1995. What -- under that license, what use was
`Sony authorized to make of PMC's patents?
` A. I believe at that time they were
`solely to use them in conjunction with the
`DirecTV system, if I remember correctly.
` Q. Is that, again, a television system?
` A. At that time, yes.
` Q. How did that patent license relate to
`the exclusive field of use that had previously
`been granted to StarSight?
` A. How did it relate?
` MR. SCHREINER: Object to form.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. Was it within StarSight's field of
`use?
` A. No.
` Q. So it related to some aspect of
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`television other than program guides for channel
`navigation allowing users to select programs?
` MR. SCHREINER: Object to form.
` A. That was the intent.
` MR. SCHREINER: Just give me a second
`to object.
` THE WITNESS: Object faster.
` MR. SCHREINER: Think faster, right?
` (Laughter.)
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. In paragraph 12 of your declaration,
`you discuss a license with The Weather
`Channel Inc. and Landmark Communications Inc.
`Were you personally involved in the negotiation
`and granting of that license?
` A. Yes and no.
` Q. Okay. In what sense yes?
` A. I was a participant in the process
`whereby pending litigation between PMC and
`Landmark Communications was settled, and the
`settlement provided that a license agreement -- a
`license would be agreed to and entered into
`between the parties. I had nothing to do with
`the preparation or negotiation of that license.
`
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` Q. Were any of the claims of
`the '717, '251 or '638 patents asserted in the
`litigation with The Weather Channel?
` A. No.
` Q. In settling the Weather Channel
`litigation, did PMC do any analysis as to whether
`claims of the '717, '251 and '638 patents covered
`activities that The Weather Channel was engaged
`in?
` MR. SCHREINER: I'm going to caution
`Mr. Holtzman not to get into any attorney-client
`privileged or work product information.
` A. It's likely that that analysis was
`done globally with regard to the patents then
`pending before the patent office because of
`certain option rights granted to Landmark
`Communications that would be very relevant to the
`new patents, including the '717, '638 and
`the '251, but I cannot say with certainty that
`those three patents were specifically considered.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. Do you have a belief as to whether or
`not The Weather Channel's technology practices
`any claims of the '717, '251 or '638?
`
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` MR. SCHREINER: Objection to form,
`outside the scope.
` A. I have done no independent study that
`would enable me to answer that question.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. Okay. With regard to the Sony
`license we already talked about briefly -- and I
`apologize for skipping back, but I wasn't
`following my notes as well as I should have
`been -- do you have any belief that the claims of
`the '717, '251 or '638 patent are relevant to the
`activities that Sony was authorized to conduct by
`virtue of the 1995 license with Sony?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection to form,
`vague, scope.
` A. To the extent that those -- may we
`call them the patents at issue, collectively?
`BY MR. TOUTON:
` Q. Those three patents, you mean?
` A. The '717, '251 and the '638.
` Q. Okay.
` A. To the extent that the patents at
`issue are relevant to digital receivers, which I
`believe they may well be, then yes, the patents
`
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` G. HOLTZMAN
`at issue are relevant to the modification of the
`Sony license that occurred in 1999 and/or
`included in the grant to Sony as pending
`applications at that time.
` Q. Do you know whether PMC discussed the
`claims of the patents at issue with Sony during
`the course of negotiating the October 31st, 1995,
`license?
` A. To my knowledge, it did not.
` Q. In paragraph 13 you refer to a
`modification to the Sony license. What other
`receiver products were licensed by the 1999
`modification?
` A. You know, I could have been confusing
`the '99 modification with the 2002 modification.
`The '99 modification might well have been just as
`to price --
` Q. Okay.
` A. -- the royalty.
` Q. You think the 2002 one was more
`substantive?
` A. I believe that's correct, as I think
`about it now.
` Q. Okay. So with respect to the 2002
`
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`modification, what rights were granted that had
`not been granted in the '95 license with respect
`to the digital satellite system receivers?
` A. There was a method established for
`determining whether new products of Sony's would
`fall under the license, number one. Number two,
`the license was extended to all digital
`receivers, whether for satellite or not, that
`Sony might make use -- make and sell.
` Q. Was it extended beyond television
`products?
` A. I don't recall it being limited to
`television. I believe it specified digital
`receivers.
` Q. Was the purpose of the expansion as
`discussed in the negotiations of the 2002
`modification related to the television digital
`receivers that Sony was making and selling?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection, form,
`vague.
` A. It was intended to deal with their
`current and future products, whatever form or
`platform those future products might evolve into.
`BY MR. TOUTON:
`
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` Q. How did the -- which of the parties
`asked for the 2002 modification?
` A. It was driven by Sony.
` Q. Were there particular products of
`Sony that were discussed in the negotiations?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And these were products, I'm
`presuming from the context here, that at least
`arguably weren't covered by the 1995 licensing
`that Sony wanted to be covered?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And were they television receivers?
` A. That was the substance of what
`started the discussion, yes. Well, they were
`digital receivers to be manufactured for a cable
`multiple system operator.
` Q. Okay. In paragraph 14, you refer to
`a field of use license granted by a PMC
`subsidiary to Pegasus Development Corporation.
`At the time of that license, was Pegasus
`Development Corporation or some of its affiliates
`engaged with -- in litigation with DirecTV?
` A. I believe it was already in
`litigation with DirecTV, yes.
`
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` Q. And did that license you referred to
`in paragraph 14 result in Pegasus and PMC filing
`a lawsuit for patent infringement against
`DirecTV?
` A. I don't think it's correct to say
`that the license caused that to happen.
` Q. Okay. I'm sorry if that was my
`question.
` Is it fair to say that after
`obtaining the license rights, Pegasus along with
`PMC sued DirecTV for infringement of PMC's
`patents?
` A. That's fair.
` Q. Were any of the patents here involved
`asserted to be infringed in that litigation?
` A. No.
` Q. In paragraph 15, you refer to a
`comprehensive agreement with Gemstar-TV Guide
`that included an investment in PMC made by
`Gemstar-TV Guide and a grant of multiple
`field-of-use licenses.
` There must be a typo, actually, in
`your language, third line of paragraph 15. Could
`you correct that? It says "by to."
`
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` A. Oh, it's "to Gemstar-TV Guide."
` Q. So strike out the word "by"?
` A. Correct. Imagine me making a
`mistake.
` Q. No, no. So let me -- now that I
`understand that, let me ask this.
` This comprehensive agreement included
`both an investment in PMC and several
`field-of-use licenses that were granted to
`Gemstar-TV Guide?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Were those field-of-use licenses
`exclusive?
` A. Some were.
` Q. And some were not?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Did that transaction with
`Gemstar-TV Guide contemplate running royalties?
` A. No, sir.
` Q. So it was a lump-sum kind of payment?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Was a large part of the lump sum
`attributed to the investment portion of the deal?
` A. Yes.
`
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` Q. Did Gemstar-TV Guide later transfer
`its interests back to PMC and abandon its
`investment interest?
` A. No.
` Q. Did they sell back -- did
`Gemstar-TV Guide sell back its investment
`interest?
` A. Not to PMC.
` Q. Did they sell it back to the Harvey
`Family limited partnership --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- or whatever it was called then?
` A. Yes. I'm just trying to keep you on
`the straight and narrow.
` Q. And --
` A. I just want to let you know I'm
`listening.
` Q. All right. And was the price at
`which it was sold back substantially less than
`the price it had originally invested?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In paragraph -- well, let me ask
`this.
` In negotiating the Gemstar-TV Guide
`
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`arrangement in December -- that was signed in
`December of 2000, was specific discussion made
`between Gemstar-TV Guide and PMC with respect to
`the claims of any of the '717, '251 or '638
`patents?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Which claims were discussed?
` A. Claims then pending of the '251.
` Q. And particularly, which claims of
`the -- well, let me back up.
` The '251 patent was issued almost ten
`years after this negotiation, right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Under the arrangement, did
`Gemstar-TV Guide take on a role with respect to
`prosecution of the claims of PMC's pending patent
`applications?
` A. They have the opportunity to
`participate.
` Q. And did they participate?
` A. No.
` Q. Who is Joe Guiliano?
` A. Joe Guiliano is currently, as I
`understand it, the head of intellectual property
`
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