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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_____________________________
`
`UNIVERSAL REMOTE CONTROL, )
`
`INC., ) No. IPR2013-00127
`
` Petitioner, ) Patent 6,587,067 C1
`
` vs. )
`
`UNIVERSAL ELECTRONICS, INC., )
`
` Patent Owner, )
`
`_____________________________)
`
` ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
`
` DEPOSITION OF RICHARD ELLIS
`
` Irvine, California
`
` Tuesday, December 10, 2013
`
` Volume I
`
`Reported by:
`
`SHARON LINDSAY-MILNIKEL
`
`CSR No. 5335
`
`Job No. 1778690A
`
`PAGES 1 - 130
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`Page 1
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`Universal Remote Control, Inc. v. Universal Electronics, Inc. Exhibit 1015, Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_____________________________
`
`UNIVERSAL REMOTE CONTROL, )
`
`INC., ) No. IPR2013-00127
`
` Petitioner, ) Patent 6,587,067 C1
`
` vs. )
`
`UNIVERSAL ELECTRONICS, INC., )
`
` Patent Owner, )
`
`_____________________________)
`
` ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
`
` DEPOSITION OF RICHARD ELLIS
`
` Irvine, California
`
` Tuesday, December 10, 2013
`
` Volume I
`
`Reported by:
`
`SHARON LINDSAY-MILNIKEL
`
`CSR No. 5335
`
`Job No. 1778690A
`
`PAGES 1 - 130
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`Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services
`866 299-5127
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_____________________________
`
`UNIVERSAL REMOTE CONTROL, )
`
`INC., ) No. IPR2013-00127
`
` Petitioner, ) Patent 6,587,067 C1
`
` vs. )
`
`UNIVERSAL ELECTRONICS, INC., )
`
` Patent Owner, )
`
`_____________________________)
`
` Deposition of RICHARD ELLIS, Volume I, taken on
`
`behalf of Petitioner, at 3161 Michelson Drive, Suite
`
`1000, Irvine, California, beginning at 9:41 a.m. and
`
`ending at 3:22 p.m. on Tuesday, December 10, 2013,
`
`before SHARON LINDSAY-MILNIKEL, Certified Shorthand
`
`Reporter No. 5335.
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`Page 2
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`A P P E A R A N C E S :
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`F o r P e t i t i o n e r :
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` S C H W E G M A N L U N D B E R G W O E S S N E R
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` B Y : T H O M A S C . R E Y N O L D S
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` A t t o r n e y a t L a w
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` S a n J o s e , C a l i f o r n i a 9 5 1 1 3
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` ( 4 0 8 ) 2 7 8 - 4 0 5 8
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` t r e y n o l d s @ s l w i p . c o m
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`F o r P a t e n t O w n e r :
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` G R E E N B E R G T R A U R I G
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` B Y : E R I C J . M A I E R S
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` A t t o r n e y a t L a w
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` 7 7 W e s t W a c k e r D r i v e , S u i t e 2 5 0 0
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` C h i c a g o , I l l i n o i s 6 0 6 0 1
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` ( 3 1 2 ) 4 5 6 - 1 0 3 6
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` m a i e r s e @ g t l a w . c o m
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`Universal Remote Control, Inc. v. Universal Electronics, Inc. Exhibit 1015, Page 3
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`
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`ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY
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` INDEX
`
`WITNESS EXAMINATION
`
`RICHARD ELLIS
`
`Volume I
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS 5
`
` EXHIBITS
`
` (None)
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` INSTRUCTION NOT TO ANSWER
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` Page Line
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` 43 20
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` 55 1
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`ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY
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` Irvine, California, Tuesday, December 10, 2013
`
` 9:41 a.m.
`
` RICHARD ELLIS,
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` having been administered an oath, was examined and
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` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q Could you state your full name and spell it
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` for the record.
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` A Richard Ellis, E-l-l-i-s.
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` Q And where do you reside, Mr. Ellis?
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` A Glendora, California.
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` Q And have you ever been deposed before?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q How many times?
`
` A Twice.
`
` Q What kinds of cases were those?
`
` A One was another one similar to this and
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` another one was a small company with a billing dispute.
`
` Q The other one that was similar to this, do you
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` recall the parties involved?
`
` A UEI and Philips.
`
` Q Are you on any kind of medication that would
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` affect your ability to truthfully testify here today?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Any other reason why you couldn't give your me
`
` your best testimony here today?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Since you've been deposed before, I won't go
`
` through all the ground rules, but, as you probably
`
` remember from your prior experiences, it's important
`
` that you give me verbal answers since the court
`
` reporter is taking down everything that you say and she
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` can't pick up nonverbal gestures.
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` Is that acceptable?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q That's a good one.
`
` And you understand that you are under oath the
`
` same as if you were testifying in a court of law?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Did you prepare for today's deposition?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q How many hours, total, would you say you
`
` prepared?
`
` A Oh, probably about two. I didn't pay that
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` much attention.
`
` Q Was it with Mr. Maiers?
`
` A Yes.
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` Q And what did you review in connection with
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` your preparation?
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` MR. MAIERS: Objection. Lack of foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: Some documents that he had.
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q Which documents were those?
`
` A The declaration that I signed and the exhibits
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` that went with it.
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` Q Anything else?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Are you being compensated for your testimony
`
` here today?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Are you being compensated generally for your
`
` work in connection with this case, if any?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Do you have any financial interest in the
`
` outcome of this matter?
`
` A I own two shares of UEI stock, so almost none.
`
` Q Two shares.
`
` Can you summarize for me your post-high school
`
` education?
`
` A I graduated high school a year early, spent a
`
` year in junior college, one year at Cal Poly Pomona,
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` and, more seriously, four years at UC Irvine.
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` Q Did you graduate from UC Irvine?
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` A Not quite.
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` Q What was your course of study at UC Irvine?
`
` A Physics and computer science.
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` Q So is that the extent of your post-high school
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` education?
`
` A Yes. Formal education.
`
` Q Can you summarize for me your post-high school
`
` employment history.
`
` A Let's see. At UC Irvine, I worked for the
`
` physics computer development project, which was a
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` computer learning project funded by the NSF.
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` From there, worked for a small company in
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` Costa Mesa that was doing energy auditing.
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` After that, General Automation in Anaheim.
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` Then Clayton Brokerage Company. That was
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` based in St. Louis, but had a small office here.
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` About then my divorce happened, so there's a
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` few months of unemployment, and a small company doing
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` computer installs.
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` Then Bell & Howell, in Irvine.
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` After that, back to that small company in
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` Costa Mesa.
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` Then UEI.
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` Then Franklin Telecom.
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` Then a company called iQstor in Thousand Oaks.
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` iQstor with no e on the end.
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` Then Global Data in Long Beach.
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` And Telefleet in Irvine.
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` And back to iQstor for a while.
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` Q Does that take us up to the present?
`
` A That takes us up to last summer and then just
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` miscellaneous small consulting jobs since then.
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` Q So you're currently not employed full time by
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` anyone?
`
` A No.
`
` Q What years were you at UEI?
`
` A From its inception to '94.
`
` Q You say "from its inception," what year was
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` that?
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` A I don't remember offhand. Early '80s
`
` sometime -- before it was UEI.
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` Q What was it called before UEI?
`
` A Well, at one point Protostar Electronics.
`
` Before that, it was just a partnership.
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` Q So after Prostar (sic), was it then UEI?
`
` A Or Protostar was dissolved and UEI was formed.
`
` I don't know the details.
`
` Q I'm sorry. Did you say "Prostar" or
`
` "Protostar"?
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` A Protostar.
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` Q Protostar.
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` And when you left, in 1994, was it UEI?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q At any of the other companies at which you
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` testified that you had worked, were you involved in the
`
` development of remote controls at any of those
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` companies?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Were you involved in the development of remote
`
` controls at either Protostar or UEI?
`
` A Both.
`
` Q Do you know approximately when the name
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` changed from Protostar to UEI?
`
` A No, I don't.
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` Q Was it the essentially the same company?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Object to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: In a way. But other people were
`
` brought in. They brought in a CEO, and such, so a
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` corporation was formed. But I wasn't really intimate
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` with the details or cared.
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q I would like you to take me through your
`
` employment history at Protostar/UEI --
`
` A Uh-huh.
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` Q -- and tell me what your various positions
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` were.
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` A Position was always the same, software
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` developer.
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` Q So your title did not change in the --
`
` A No.
`
` Q -- time there?
`
` A We didn't really use titles. I think I was
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` considered senior software engineer at the point where
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` they actually paid attention to such things.
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` Q When you joined Protostar in the early '80s,
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` approximately how big was the company?
`
` A It was three people, including me.
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` Q Who were the other two?
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` A Avram Grossman and Paul Darbee.
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` Q Did either Mr. Grossman or Mr. Darbee actually
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` found the company?
`
` A I don't know what you mean. Explain what
`
` you're asking.
`
` Q Sure.
`
` Do you know who started Protostar as a
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` company?
`
` A Avram and Paul.
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Both of them. They had -- I'll
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` elaborate. They were a partnership of doing consulting
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` projects, electronic design and software, and when the
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` remote control project got going, eventually they
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` decided they needed to be more formal with it and have
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` a company name.
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q Did Protostar develop any other kinds of
`
` projects besides remote controls?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q What other kinds of project?
`
` A Well, the first thing that I was involved with
`
` was the -- you know the key card that you use at your
`
` hotel?
`
` Q Sure.
`
` A They were working on that. We did some
`
` X10 -- you know, home wiring, remote control power
`
` switch stuff. I don't think it ever became a product.
`
` There's probably a few more things, but I
`
` don't remember.
`
` Q Besides those things, during the entire course
`
` of your employment at Protostar and then later UEI, did
`
` the company make any other devices?
`
` A Make any other devices? I don't think so.
`
` Q When you started at Protostar, were you
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` assigned to a particular project?
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` A Yes. The remote control project.
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` Q Did that have a name?
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` A Well, Paul called it Homer at some point, but
`
` I never particularly liked that name.
`
` Q Why not?
`
` A I don't know, it just seemed corny.
`
` Q Did it change over time?
`
` A It stayed that way until it, you know, became
`
` UEI and marketing people called it other things.
`
` Q Do you know what other things it was called?
`
` A One4all.
`
` Q Anything else?
`
` A Not that I recall.
`
` Q And I may have asked you this before, if I did
`
` I apologize, do you recall when the name changed to
`
` UEI?
`
` A No, I don't.
`
` Q So when you started, you were assigned to the
`
` Homer project, correct?
`
` A Correct.
`
` Q And what was your duty with respect to the
`
` Homer project?
`
` A Develop the software.
`
` Q Prior to you being hired, had anyone started
`
` development of any software for that project?
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` A No.
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` Q Were you assisted in the development of the
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` software by anyone?
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` A Well, Paul Darbee had some input but mostly it
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` was all me.
`
` Q What was Mr. Darbee's role, if any, in the
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` project?
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` A His major role was hardware design.
`
` Q What was Mr. Grossman's role, if any, in the
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` project?
`
` A More of the business aspects.
`
` Q When you say "business aspects," what do you
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` mean by that?
`
` A Paying bills, making deals.
`
` Q So besides you, Mr. Darbee and Mr. Grossman,
`
` was anyone else involved in the project?
`
` A Well, later we brought in Lou Jansky.
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` Q I'm sorry, what was the last name?
`
` A Jansky.
`
` Q When was Mr. Jansky brought in?
`
` A I don't recall the date.
`
` Q Can you estimate approximately how many years
`
` after you started he was brought in?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: One or two, I guess. That is
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` just a guess.
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` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
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` Q And what was Mr. Jansky's role?
`
` A His major role was capturing codes out of
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` remotes.
`
` Q Can you elaborate on that for me. What does
`
` capturing codes out of remotes mean?
`
` A Take a remote control, you shine it at a
`
` device, you push it -- point it at a capture device,
`
` you push each of the buttons in turn noting which each
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` one is, and it gets captured into a file and then you
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` interpret the file to be part of the library of codes.
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` Q So the capturing of codes was not any part of
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` the software that you were developing?
`
` A I developed the software to capture the codes,
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` he was doing the actual capturing.
`
` Q How long was Mr. Jansky at the company?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection. Lack of foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: Probably about two years, but I
`
` don't have a good memory of when he came or left.
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q Did you have -- strike that.
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` Were there any outside consultants that worked
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` on the Homer project?
`
` A Not that I know of, or at least not on the
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` software side. As it went in -- towards production, we
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` had a circuit board designer that was outside.
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` Q And when did that take place?
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` A I don't recall.
`
` Q So you --
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` A Well, probably early 1987. Yeah, that would
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` be about then, about 1987, early in the year.
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` Q Is there something that jogged your memory
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` as --
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` A I.
`
` Q -- to early 1987?
`
` A I took a trip to Korea to help the
`
` manufacturer with the testing device and programming
`
` device that they would have to use, and it was a year
`
` before the Korean Olympics.
`
` Q Who did you visit in Korea?
`
` A Inkel, I-n-k-e-l, I think it was called.
`
` Q What type of company was Inkel?
`
` A A very small electronics manufacturer.
`
` Q So why did you decide to deal with Inkel?
`
` A I didn't.
`
` Q Did someone tell you that you were supposed to
`
` visit Inkel?
`
` A They told me to go to Korea with another
`
` person from Frank O'Donnell's company, who was Korean,
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` and train them in the use of the device.
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` Q Who was Frank O'Donnell?
`
` A He was part of what came in to Protostar and
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` formed UEI. He had a company in Long Beach that
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` refurbished cable boxes.
`
` Q So you say he helped to form UEI?
`
` A He was -- I don't really know the business
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` relationships, but I think he was helping fund the
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` development early on. That might have been why they
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` formalized Protostar with a name.
`
` Q What was the purpose of your trip to Korea to
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` visit Inkel?
`
` A I already said, to train them on the
`
` manufacturing technique -- or the programming
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` technique. We had a box that was -- that tested the
`
` remote and loaded the RAM with the software.
`
` Q Why did you have to use them at all, why
`
` couldn't that just be done at Protostar?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Business decision. I don't
`
` know.
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q Did you have the ability at Protostar to do
`
` that type of testing?
`
` A Testing, yes, but not manufacturing in bulk.
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` If we did that testing here, it would be bringing in
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` the remotes in partially constructed and hiring people,
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` large numbers of people to run them through the
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` machine.
`
` Q When you say hiring large numbers of people,
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` what kinds of people were you hiring?
`
` A We weren't hiring anyone. I said that's what
`
` we would have to do if we did it here.
`
` Q Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
`
` So you did hire --
`
` A No, we had it done at the manufacturer, which
`
` made more sense, and certainly was cheaper.
`
` Q I guess I'm still a little bit unclear.
`
` What were these large number of people at the
`
` manufacturers that were hired actually doing?
`
` A Mostly soldering. But then once the device
`
` was constructed and before you put the back cover on,
`
` you put it in a socket on the test device, then they
`
` would have to push the column of keys to make sure all
`
` the keys were connected. And once they had done that,
`
` it loaded the software in or, if it didn't pass, it
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` rejected the device.
`
` Q You say "if it didn't pass," what do you mean
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` by that?
`
` A They did a series of tests to see if the
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` hardware was okay, including those key presses.
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` Q Did they communicate the results of these
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` tests to anyone back at Protostar?
`
` A I do not know.
`
` Q So I take it that means you never got the
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` results of any tests from Inkel?
`
` A Me personally?
`
` Q Correct?
`
` A No. No, I was a programmer, I didn't need
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` manufacturing results.
`
` Q Did Inkel ultimately end up manufacturing the
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` device?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Do you know when that was?
`
` A No. Other than just probably right after I
`
` took the trip there. I believe they were building some
`
` while I was there.
`
` Q Was the Homer remote ever actually sold by
`
` Protostar or UEI?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q When was the first such sale?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection. Lack of foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't know.
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q Was it within, let's say, a year of your trip
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` to Korea?
`
` A Yes.
`
` MR. MAIERS: Same objection.
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q At the time that you were working on the Homer
`
` project, were you working on any other projects?
`
` A I kind of have a vague memory of some other
`
` side things that I did, but nothing big, and I don't
`
` remember what they were.
`
` Q When you say "some other side things," do you
`
` mean outside of Protostar, UEI or within --
`
` A No, within. They were still somewhat looking
`
` for consulting jobs to help pay the bills.
`
` Q So when you say "they" were looking for
`
` consulting jobs, meaning Protostar, UEI was taking on
`
` other projects?
`
` A Paul and Avram.
`
` Q And were those all remote control-related?
`
` A None of them were.
`
` Q Do you recall, in general, what the subject
`
` matter was?
`
` A Not really.
`
` Q After the Homer project, did you then move on
`
` to a different project?
`
` A At UEI?
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` Q Yes.
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` A No.
`
` Q So during the entire time that you were at
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` UEI, you were just working on the Homer project?
`
` A And variations of it, but the general theme of
`
` remote controls, yes.
`
` Q What was the next thing that happened in terms
`
` of the evolution of the Homer design that you were
`
` involved in?
`
` A From what point?
`
` Q After you indicated that the device was
`
` actually sold, which you said was probably within a
`
` year of your trip to Korea --
`
` A Well, probably less than that, but somewhere
`
` in there, but I wasn't on the business side so --
`
` Q Okay. So that device was being sold --
`
` A Uh-huh.
`
` Q -- then what did you -- what was the next
`
` project that you undertook?
`
` A Well, we continued refinements at that point.
`
` Q What type of refinements?
`
` A Well, that's 25 years ago, so -- at some point
`
` we moved to a different microprocessor, which meant
`
` redoing the software completely. That took a good
`
` amount of time. We had sold to RadioShack and they
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` wanted customizations.
`
` Q What was the processor that you moved to?
`
` A Motorola 6805.
`
` Q What was the prior processor?
`
` A Intel 8048 -- or 8039, which was early. And I
`
` think the actual part we used was from Toshiba.
`
` Q Why did you move from the Intel part to the
`
` Motorola part?
`
` A The new CEO wanted a cheaper remote.
`
` Q Who was the new CEO?
`
` A I have been trying to think of his name all
`
` day.
`
` Q Who was the prior CEO?
`
` A There was none. That was when -- the CEO when
`
` UEI was formed. I'm sure you can find it.
`
` Q Well, if you remember at some point --
`
` A Yeah.
`
` Q -- do let me know.
`
` So you indicated that the change in processors
`
` required you to do new software; is that correct?
`
` A That's correct.
`
` Q Was that a total rewrite?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q What language was the software written in for
`
` the Intel processor?
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` A Well, for both processors it was in their
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` respective assembly languages.
`
` Q How long, in total, would you say that it took
`
` you to develop the software for the Intel processor?
`
` A It was an ongoing development, but it was
`
` operational within maybe six months of when it started.
`
` Q How long did it take to you to develop the
`
` software for the Motorola processor?
`
` A Another six months, maybe less. I knew
`
` somewhat what I was doing by then.
`
` Q So when you were developing the software for
`
` the Intel processor, you were still kind of learning
`
` the ropes, you might say?
`
` A Let's see. It wasn't just learning the ropes,
`
` but, you know, part of it was just deciding which
`
` direction we were heading.
`
` Q What do you mean when you say "which direction
`
` we were heading"?
`
` A What features we wanted, how we wanted to
`
` implement them.
`
` Q But prior to Protostar you hadn't developed
`
` software for any remote controls before, correct?
`
` A No.
`
` Q When you say they were deciding what features
`
` they wanted, do you recall what features were discussed
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` in that regard?
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` A Not offhand.
`
` MR. MAIERS: We are straying a little bit
`
` outside of Mr. Ellis's declaration. I'm not sure
`
` whether this is confidential stuff or not that he's
`
` testifying about. I would like to mark the transcript
`
` as attorneys' eyes only until I can confer with my
`
` client.
`
` MR. REYNOLDS: That's fine.
`
` Remind me, Eric, did we agree on a protective
`
` order, the standard PTAB protective order, or --
`
` MR. MAIERS: I don't think we did, but we can
`
` operate under it for the time being, and if we have any
`
` changes, we can discuss that --
`
` MR. REYNOLDS: That's fine.
`
` MR. MAIERS: -- if that's fine with you.
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q Who communicated to you the types of features
`
` that they wanted to have developed in the software?
`
` A It was a communal discussion.
`
` Q Between who?
`
` A Paul Darbee and myself, and some input from
`
` Avram.
`
` Q I'm sorry, from who?
`
` A Avram Grossman.
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` Q Were there any documents to memorialize those
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` discussions?
`
` A The discussions themselves, probably not.
`
` Q Were there any documents that they ever gave
`
` you with a list of software requirements?
`
` A They might have, but I don't remember. I
`
` think a lot of it was just verbal.
`
` Q After the change to the Motorola processor,
`
` what's the next major --
`
` (Interruption in the proceedings.)
`
` BY MR. REYNOLDS:
`
` Q Let me start over.
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q After the Motorola processor, what was the
`
` next major design evolution that were you involved in?
`
` A I don't really remember.
`
` Q At the time that you left UEI, was the
`
` Motorola processor still being used?
`
` A Yes. I was probably doing projects for OEMs
`
` at that point.
`
` Q What types of projects?
`
` A Customizations. There was a lot of, you know,
`
` new remotes coming out. You have to deal with the new
`
` keypad layout and stuff like that.
`
` Q Do you recall what OEMs that you worked with?
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` A Well, the biggest one was RadioShack, or at
`
` least the most painful.
`
` Q Why was it painful?
`
` A They wanted some weird customizations that
`
` they ended up not wanting in the end anyway.
`
` Q Were these their own designs or were they a
`
` variance of the Homer design?
`
` A They were a variance of the standard design.
`
` Q At the time that you left UEI, how big was the
`
` company then?
`
` A Define what you mean by "big."
`
` Q How many people?
`
` A I don't know.
`
` Q More than ten?
`
` A Yes. We had two offices, one here and one in
`
` Ohio.
`
` Q What was in Ohio?
`
` A Corporate headquarters.
`
` Q Would you say it was more or less than 25
`
` people at the time that you left?
`
` A It was probably more.
`
` Q Less than 50, more than 50?
`
` A I wouldn't know.
`
` Q At the time that you left, was the UEI
`
` business still focused on remote controls?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Any other products that they made?
`
` A Not that I recall.
`
` Q Why did you decide to leave UEI?
`
` A They fired me.
`
` Q Why is that?
`
` A Because the reality was the CEO screwed up on
`
` ordering parts and we had a bad quarter and he dumped
`
` the entire R&D division.
`
` Q Who made up the entire R&D division?
`
` A Paul Darbee, myself, Mark Milhollan and Don,
`
` whose last name I can't remember. And we had a
`
` technician for doing soldering and stuff, but I
`
` definitely don't remember his name.
`
` Q Okay, Mr. Ellis, I'm going to show you what
`
` has previously been marked as Exhibit 2005. It is a
`
` copy of your declaration and the supporting exh
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