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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`-------------------------------:
`ORACLE CORPORATION, :
` :
` Petitioner, :
` :
` vs. : Case No.
` : I PR 2013-0073 (JL)
`CLOUDING IP, L.L.C., : No. 6,738,700
` :
` Patent Owner. :
` :
`-------------------------------:
` Alexandria, Virginia
` Wednesday, May 29, 2013
`
`Deposition of:
` ANDREW GRIMSHAW, PH.D.
`called for oral examination by counsel for Patent
`Owner, pursuant to notice, at Oblon, Spivak,
`McClelland, Maier & Neustadt, L.L.P., 1940 Duke
`Street, Alexandria, Virginia, before Shari R.
`Broussard, RPR, CSR, of Capital Reporting Company, a
`Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia,
`beginning at 10:14 a.m., when were present on behalf
`of the respective parties:
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`Capital Reporting Company
`Grimshaw, Andrew, Ph. D 05-29-2013
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`-------------------------------:
`ORACLE CORPORATION, :
` :
` Petitioner, :
` :
` vs. : Case No.
` : I PR 2013-0073 (JL)
`CLOUDING IP, L.L.C., : No. 6,738,700
` :
` Patent Owner. :
` :
`-------------------------------:
` Alexandria, Virginia
` Wednesday, May 29, 2013
`
`Deposition of:
` ANDREW GRIMSHAW, PH.D.
`called for oral examination by counsel for Patent
`Owner, pursuant to notice, at Oblon, Spivak,
`McClelland, Maier & Neustadt, L.L.P., 1940 Duke
`Street, Alexandria, Virginia, before Shari R.
`Broussard, RPR, CSR, of Capital Reporting Company, a
`Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia,
`beginning at 10:14 a.m., when were present on behalf
`of the respective parties:
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`Grimshaw, Andrew, Ph. D 05-29-2013
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`1 A P P E A R A N C E S
`2 On behalf of Petitioner:
`3 MICHAEL L. KIKLIS, ESQUIRE
` SCOTT McKEOWN, ESQUIRE
`4 CHRISTOPHER RICCIUTI, ESQUIRE
` Oblon, Spivak, McClelland,
`5 Maier & Neustadt, L.L.P.
` 1940 Duke Street
`6 Alexandria, Virginia 22314
` (703) 413-3000
`7 mkiklis@oblon.com
` smckeown@oblon.com
`8 cricciuti@oblon.com
`9
`10 On behalf of Patent Owner:
`11 TAREK N. FAHMI, ESQUIRE
` Fahmi, Sellers & Embert
`12 84 Santa Clara Street, Suite 550
` San Jose, California 95113-1812
`13 (866) 877-4883
` tarek.fahmi@fseip.com
`14
`15 ALSO PRESENT:
`16 Brad Sheafe
` Nicholas Baggaley, Oracle
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
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`1 C O N T E N T S
`2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
`3 Counsel for Patent Owner 4
`
`4 5
`
`PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS REFERRED TO: PAGE
`6 1001 U.S. Patent No. 6,738,799 48
`7 1003 U.S. Patent No. 6,233,589 35
`8 1004 U.S. Patent No. 5,832,520 68
`9 1006 U.S. Patent No. 5,990,810 9
`10 1007 Grimshaw Declaration 21
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22 (*Exhibits attached to transcript.)
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`Capital Reporting Company
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`1 P R O C E E D I N G S
`2 WHEREUPON,
`3 ANDREW GRIMSHAW, PH.D.
`4 called as a witness, and having been sworn by the
`5 notary public, was examined and testified as
`6 follows:
`7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER
`8 BY MR. FAHMI:
`9 Q Would you identify yourself for the record,
`10 please, Dr. Grimshaw?
`11 A My name is Andrew Grimshaw. I'm a professor
`12 of computer science at the University of Virginia.
`13 Q Do you have a current address?
`14 A I have a current address. I live at 129
`15 Observatory Ave.
`16 Q Dr. Grimshaw, my name is Tarek Fahmi. I'm
`17 an attorney. I represent Clouding IP, L.L.C. in a
`18 matter before the United States Patent Trial and
`19 Appeal Board brought by Oracle Corporation contesting
`20 the validity of Clouding's '799 patent.
`21 Have you ever been deposed before,
`22 Dr. Grimshaw?
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`1 A I have.
`2 Q How many times?
`3 A Twice.
`4 Q Just a couple of ground rules if you don't
`5 mind. I'm going to assume for purposes of today's
`6 proceedings that if you answer a question, that you've
`7 understood my question and you're answering the
`8 question that I've asked.
`9 Is that fair?
`10 A I guess so, yes.
`11 Q And I'd like to read into the record a rule
`12 from the U.S. PTO PTAB concerning the taking of
`13 testimony in proceedings such as this, and this is
`14 from the Office of Patent Trial Practice Guide. It's
`15 at page 48772 of Volume 77 of the Federal Register.
`16 It's just one paragraph. "Once the cross-examination
`17 of a witness has commenced and until cross-examination
`18 of the witness has concluded, counsel offering the
`19 witness on direct examination shall not (a), consult
`20 or confer with the witness regarding the substance of
`21 the witness' testimony already given or anticipated to
`22 be given except for the purpose of conferring on
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`1 whether to assert a privilege against testifying or on
`2 how to comply with a board order; or, (b), suggest to
`3 the witness the manner in which any questions should
`4 be answered."
`5 Do you have any questions regarding that
`6 instruction, Dr. Grimshaw?
`7 A No, I don't.
`8 Q Is there any reason, sir, that you can't
`9 give your best testimony in this proceeding today?
`10 A No, there's no reason.
`11 Q Are you taking any medications that would
`12 affect your memory?
`13 A I'm taking medications but not that would
`14 affect my memory, no.
`15 Q Anything else that would prevent you from
`16 giving your best testimony here today?
`17 A No, sir.
`18 Q Do you have any questions before we begin?
`19 A No sir.
`20 Q Dr. Grimshaw, you've provided a declaration
`21 in support of Oracle's petition in this matter; is
`22 that right?
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`1 A That's correct.
`2 Q Do you recall that declaration?
`3 A I do.
`4 Q One of the things that was covered in that
`5 declaration was the Williams' patent. That's U.S.
`6 patent 5,990,810.
`7 Do you recall that?
`8 A Yes, I recall that.
`9 Q Williams describes a system in which a
`10 computer transmits a difference file to a second
`11 computer, right?
`12 A Williams describes a number of things. The
`13 goal of Williams is to fine-grain backup by sending
`14 encoded difference files from one computer to another
`15 computer.
`16 Q Move to strike as nonresponsive.
`17 Please answer the question that I've asked,
`18 Dr. Grimshaw.
`19 A All right. I'm sorry. I thought I did. Go
`20 ahead.
`21 Q Williams describes a system in which one
`22 computer sends a difference file to another computer,
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`1 correct?
`2 A Among other things, yes.
`3 Q There are no instructions to the second
`4 computer containing that difference file, correct?
`5 MR. KIKLIS: Objection. Form.
`6 THE WITNESS: May I see a copy of Williams?
`7 BY MR. FAHMI:
`8 Q Do you have any independent recollection of
`9 whether or not there are instructions contained in the
`10 difference file described by Williams?
`11 A At this particular instance I don't recall
`12 the format of the difference file that was being sent
`13 from one place to the other.
`14 The difference files in the things that we
`15 examined fall into one of two categories. I have a --
`16 a recollection of which of those two categories
`17 Williams was in. I would like to take a quick glance
`18 at it so I can make sure I've got the right -- the
`19 right patent in my head. But I mean, that's --
`20 there's two basic techniques for doing this.
`21 Q So right now you can't recall which one
`22 Williams describes, right?
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`1 A I -- I think I recall, but I wouldn't want
`2 to make a statement that it was absolutely A versus B
`3 because that would -- you know, I -- I could be
`4 mistaken on what I'm saying.
`5 Q (Handing document to the witness.)
`6 A Thank you.
`7 Q Dr. Grimshaw, I've handed you a copy of
`8 what's been previously marked as Oracle Exhibit 1006.
`9 A Uh-huh.
`10 Q Do you agree that's the Williams patent upon
`11 which you --
`12 A Yes, it is.
`13 Q If you would, please, turn to column 19.
`14 Beginning at about line 29 of column 19 Williams is
`15 describing an example for a fine-grained incremental
`16 backup system, correct?
`17 A Yes, that's correct.
`18 Q In column 20 beginning at line approximately
`19 45, Williams describes the format of the incremental
`20 backup file, correct?
`21 A Yes, that's correct.
`22 Q There are no instructions included in that
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`1 incremental backup file, correct?
`2 A I would --
`3 MR. KIKLIS: Objection. Form.
`4 THE WITNESS: I would disagree with that.
`5 When Williams indicates an existing -- that there --
`6 excuse me -- let me back up.
`7 The -- one of the things that Williams sends
`8 is an indicator of a particular subblock that is to be
`9 retained in the new block, and in my mind that implies
`10 a copy of that particular subblock and the original
`11 file is to be retained or copied into the new -- the
`12 new version of the file when a new file is being
`13 created.
`14 BY MR. FAHMI:
`15 Q So referring to the table beginning just
`16 below line 45 --
`17 A Right.
`18 Q -- in column 20 -- do you see that?
`19 A Yes.
`20 Q -- we agree that's the format of the
`21 incremental backup file, correct?
`22 A It is an --
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`1 MR. KIKLIS: Objection. Form.
`2 THE WITNESS: It is an example of the
`3 format. It does not include all possible things.
`4 BY MR. FAHMI:
`5 Q Would you read the passage beginning at line
`6 20 or -- excuse me -- column 20 approximately line 45?
`7 A "The format of the incremental backup file
`8 is as follows: Bytes," and there's a table. The
`9 left-hand column is the size of the entry and the
`10 right-hand column is the description, and the very
`11 first line in the table is 16 bytes, an MD5 digest of
`12 Y, an MD5 digest of X and then zero or more items,
`13 and -- and then finally the MD5 digest of the rest of
`14 the incremental backup file.
`15 Q Do you see the word "example" in there
`16 anywhere?
`17 A No, I don't.
`18 Q So wouldn't you agree that this is the
`19 format of the incremental backup file described by
`20 Williams?
`21 A This is the format for the backup file. It
`22 doesn't fully define it though because it says it has
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`1 zero or more items and then items are subsequently
`2 defined.
`3 Q There's nothing in there that indicates an
`4 instruction, correct?
`5 A The items could include instructions.
`6 Q Do you see the passage beginning at about
`7 line 66 of column 20?
`8 A Oh, column 20. Sixty-six. I do.
`9 Q Williams is describing the items included in
`10 the incremental backup file, correct?
`11 A That's correct.
`12 Q Williams doesn't mention any instructions in
`13 those items, correct?
`14 A So to me we need to think about what does an
`15 instruction mean. I can have an instruction that when
`16 I give you something, it may not say do X in this
`17 particular way, but because of the way that the
`18 machine, and I use that in terms of the abstract
`19 machine that's executing the stream of input, receives
`20 it, if I get a number -- let's not use this -- let me
`21 not use this one as an example but just a general
`22 example.
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`1 Q Well, Dr. Grimshaw, let me interrupt you.
`2 A Sure.
`3 Q If you wouldn't mind just answering the
`4 question that I've asked. If you don't understand the
`5 question, I'm happy to rephrase it.
`6 A Could you --
`7 Q But the question I asked was Williams
`8 doesn't mention any instructions in describing the
`9 items in the backup file, correct?
`10 A I think it does have instructions.
`11 Q Where do you see instructions?
`12 A Because if you send the index of a subblock,
`13 that's telling it that it should copy it. It doesn't
`14 say copy, it doesn't explicitly say do X, but when you
`15 receive a particular thing, it means do this
`16 particular thing. It's a matter of encoding.
`17 So I would argue that there are instructions
`18 in there. They aren't spelled out in terms of English
`19 text, but in the description of the algorithm they are
`20 spelled out that when you get this particular kind of
`21 item, this is what you're going to do.
`22 Q What algorithm are you referring to?
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`1 A I'm referring to the technique described
`2 primarily -- let me make sure I've got it right
`3 because I don't want to get that wrong.
`4 So the algorithm is described with lots of
`5 options starting in -- in column three at
`6 approximately line nine and it goes on for quite some
`7 time. It describes the ways to construct a file D
`8 that's going to consist of -- and there's a Figure 25
`9 which -- which sort of refers to it, where it
`10 constructs a set of hashes or subblocks that were --
`11 previously occurred in file X -- excuse me --
`12 additional inserts that are going to be performed and
`13 then -- on -- on the file, and then sends that as what
`14 it calls a D, an incremental backup, and that encodes
`15 the information.
`16 Now, when one of the subblocks is labeled in
`17 D, the algorithm on the other side, on E2 as he
`18 described it, to reconstruct the file, the new file,
`19 is going to take that subblock number or hash and look
`20 up in the original file Y and copy that over. So
`21 that's the nature of how that algorithm works.
`22 So you don't -- there's no explicit
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`1 statement that says copy block 47. Instead 47 -- I'm
`2 drawing an analogy here -- is sent, which tells it
`3 what it needs to be copying over.
`4 Q So you would agree there's nothing in file D
`5 in the nature of an instruction to copy, correct?
`6 MR. KIKLIS: Objection. Form.
`7 THE WITNESS: No, not at all. That's not
`8 what I just said. I just said that when one of the
`9 subblock numbers is transmitted in -- in file D, that
`10 is instructing the other machine to copy that block.
`11 BY MR. FAHMI:
`12 Q Where is that instruction?
`13 A It's encoded -- the way that they are
`14 encoding the file D is the block number is sent and
`15 that tells it to copy that block.
`16 Q Where in Williams does he describe writing
`17 an instruction into file D?
`18 A The algorithm doesn't work by writing
`19 instructions, so -- let me back up a second.
`20 When you're encoding something -- let's take
`21 a computer instruction add. If you think of an
`22 instruction add that adds R1 and R2 -- and if you look
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`1 in a program you're never going to see an instruction
`2 in English text that says add R1 and R2 except in the
`3 assembly language possibly which a human being sees,
`4 but the computer does not execute directly. That
`5 instruction will be encoded into a bunch of bits that
`6 say to the underlying machine add R1 and R2 because
`7 that's the protocol or the agreement between the
`8 machine and the program about how things are going to
`9 work.
`10 Similarly, in Williams you're not going to
`11 see an instruction that says copy block 47. Instead
`12 you're going to see a 47 that, because of its location
`13 in the file and how it's occurring, tells the machine
`14 on the other side that's interpreting this file D to
`15 copy block 47.
`16 So the question that you asked was is there
`17 a copy instruction in Williams. Per se it's not
`18 written out in English copy, but because of the nature
`19 of the encoding of the file D, when that shows up, it
`20 means to copy that block.
`21 Q So, in fact, there is no instruction in file
`22 D, right?
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`1 MR. KIKLIS: Objection. Form.
`2 THE WITNESS: I -- I think I just answered
`3 that question.
`4 There's no instruction that says in English
`5 copy something. There is, though, by the very nature
`6 of the fact that the block number or the hash
`7 number -- I don't recall which is being sent -- tells
`8 it that that's a block that it needs to copy.
`9 BY MR. FAHMI:
`10 Q So the intelligence for copying resides on
`11 the computer that reads file D?
`12 A There's -- there's no --
`13 MR. KIKLIS: Objection to form.
`14 THE WITNESS: There's no intelligence at
`15 all. It's the protocol that they are using the
`16 sequence of what's going to be in the file in what
`17 order at what time. It's part of their description of
`18 their invention. It will tell the other machine what
`19 it needs to do by the very nature of where it is in
`20 there. That's -- that's how protocols work. So it
`21 means copy this thing.
`22 BY MR. FAHMI:
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`1 Q Going back to column 21 in Williams --
`2 A Okay.
`3 Q -- where he describes the --
`4 A Could you let me get there first, please?
`5 Twenty-one. Okay.
`6 Q Have you found it?
`7 A I've got 21.
`8 Q Williams is describing the three kinds of
`9 items included in the difference file, right?
`10 A Uh-huh.
`11 Q Is that yes?
`12 A Yes, I see that section you're referring to,
`13 lines 5 through 25.
`14 Q And just so that the transcript is clear,
`15 the file D that we've been discussing for the last few
`16 minutes is the difference file, correct?
`17 A Yes, it's the difference file that's
`18 transmitted between the two machines.
`19 Q And these are the items that are included in
`20 that file, right?
`21 A Let me verify that. Yes, that's correct.
`22 Q The first item is an indices of a subblock
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`1 in Y, right?
`2 A Uh-huh.
`3 Q Is that yes? I'm sorry?
`4 A Yes. I'm sorry. I actually mumbled. Yes,
`5 the first item is the 32-bit index in the subblock in
`6 Y.
`7 Q Y in Williams' notation is the old file
`8 resident on the second computer, right?
`9 A Yes. It may also be resident still on the
`10 first computer.
`11 Q The second item is an index of the first and
`12 last subblock of a range of subblocks in file Y,
`13 correct?
`14 A Yes, that's correct.
`15 Q The third item is a value that contains the
`16 number of bytes in the subblock; is that correct?
`17 A It contains more than that. It contains a
`18 32-bit value that says how many bytes is going to be
`19 in the -- in the subblock that's going to follow in
`20 the stream followed by the content of that subblock.
`21 This is to be inserted. This is data that is in X but
`22 is not present in Y.
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`1 Q And you would agree, wouldn't you, that none
`2 of those indices or values are instructions, right?
`3 A I would disagree strongly with that
`4 statement. Each of those are, in essence,
`5 instructions in the protocol that they're using to
`6 transmit the information.
`7 The first one is saying copy this particular
`8 index, the second one is saying copy this range of
`9 index -- the blocks that correspond to that range of
`10 index, and the third one is saying insert at this
`11 point -- or actually the way they're being
`12 interpreted, append at this point as you're processing
`13 this, this block of information into the new file. So
`14 I disagree. They're all instructions.
`15 Q Referring to column 19 beginning at about
`16 line 53, the sentence that begins, "E1 then transmits
`17 the file as a mixture of raw subblocks and references
`18 to subblocks."
`19 A Uh-huh.
`20 Q Do you see that?
`21 A I do see that.
`22 Q Does that passage in Williams describe the
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`1 items that are then explained in column 21?
`2 A Just a moment. So in this -- yes. So what
`3 he's describing is a way to construct the file D
`4 that's going to be sent between the two.
`5 Are we finished with this?
`6 Q We'll get back to it, but you can set it
`7 aside for a moment.
`8 A Okay.
`9 Q Dr. Grimshaw, I've handed you what's been
`10 previously marked as Oracle Exhibit 1007. It's
`11 entitled "Declaration of Dr. Andrew Grimshaw, Ph.D."
`12 I'll give you a few minutes to look through that.
`13 A (Complying.) Okay.
`14 Q Do you recognize this as the declaration and
`15 its supporting attachments that you provided in these
`16 proceedings?
`17 A I recognize it as the declaration. I'm
`18 not -- I have not checked to confirm that all the
`19 supporting attachments are there, but I believe
`20 that -- let's assume for the moment that they're
`21 there.
`22 Q And on page 32, that's your signature, isn't
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`1 it?
`2 A Yes. It's not the best in the world. I'm
`3 starting to get a little -- yeah.
`4 BY MR. FAHMI:
`5 Q This declaration contains the opinions that
`6 you've expressed in this matter; is that right?
`7 A It contains opinions that I have expressed
`8 in this matter, yes.
`9 Q It contains all the opinions you've
`10 expressed in this matter, correct?
`11 A It has not -- does not contain all the
`12 opinions that I've ever expressed or that I might
`13 express in the future, but it certainly contains
`14 the -- the ones that I brought to the table, yes.
`15 MR. FAHMI: Counsel, are there any other
`16 opinions that we should know about that Dr. Grimshaw
`17 has provided in this matter?
`18 MR. KIKLIS: It's not my deposition.
`19 BY MR. FAHMI:
`20 Q Dr. Grimshaw, is it your understanding that
`21 you will be providing additional opinions in this
`22 matter?
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`1 A I may be providing additional opinions in
`2 this matter. At this point I don't know whether I
`3 will or will not be providing additional opinions in
`4 this matter.
`5 Q Have you been asked to provide additional
`6 opinions in this matter?
`7 A At this juncture I have not been asked to
`8 provide -- so let me correct that statement.
`9 Additional opinions beyond what's in here?
`10 Q That's right.
`11 A I did provide some other opinions on a --
`12 with respect to the '799 patent. I assume we're
`13 referring to that.
`14 Q Yes.
`15 A Yes. I have provided -- at a later date I
`16 provided some additional opinions.
`17 Q And those are in the context of a separate
`18 petition by Oracle; is that right?
`19 A Yes, I believe that's the correct way of
`20 saying it. Yes.
`21 Q So in this context of this petition --
`22 A Petition.
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`1 Q -- which forms matter I PR 2013-00073, the
`2 entirety of your opinions are expressed in this
`3 declaration; is that right?
`4 A That I've expressed so far, yes.
`5 Well, in addition, there's the -- I want to
`6 correct that. I also supported the -- I can't
`7 remember what these things are called all of a
`8 sudden -- the -- mind blank -- the claim charts in
`9 the -- I cannot recall the name of this kind of
`10 document, the document that Oracle sent in with their
`11 petition. So I support -- so what I'm trying to get
`12 at is some of my opinions also appear in the claim
`13 charts and are -- and I support those things that are
`14 in the claim charts and that document. I'm just
`15 trying to be clear. I'm not sure I'm being clear.
`16 Q Uh-huh. Did you prepare those claim charts?
`17 A I certainly assisted in -- in the claim
`18 charts and in coming up with how the claim charts
`19 would be constructed. I spent quite a bit of time on
`20 those claim charts. I -- if I was writing an academic
`21 paper, I would not say that I was the sole author by
`22 any stretch of the imagination of those claim charts.
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`1 Q Referring just for the moment to
`2 Exhibit 1007, your declaration.
`3 A That's the declaration. Okay.
`4 Q Can you turn, please, to page 26?
`5 A Okay.
`6 Q Do you see the figure at the top of page 26?
`7 A I do.
`8 Q Did you prepare that figure?
`9 A Did I actually do the drawing? I assisted
`10 in the discussion of how that figure would explain
`11 what's going on in D, but I did not draw that figure,
`12 no.
`13 Q Would you agree that figure does not appear
`14 in the Williams patent?
`15 A I would agree that that figure -- the -- in
`16 particular, the right-hand side does not. The
`17 left-hand side actually -- I don't know how to
`18 describe this so that it will come through in the
`19 transcript, but the thing that's labeled D I believe
`20 comes from either Figure 25 or 18. I -- may I check
`21 and see which one?
`22 Q Sure.
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`1 A Why do I have multiple copies of this?
`2 Okay.
`3 Yeah. So the -- in the figure that we're
`4 referring to there's a left-hand side and a right-hand
`5 side, and the right-hand -- the left-hand side rather,
`6 which says D in parentheses and then 162 with some
`7 artwork I guess, does come from Figure 25. The
`8 right-hand side is an explanation of what that D block
`9 implies.
`10 Q Williams itself doesn't provide that
`11 explanation though, does it?
`12 A He provides that explanation in the
`13 description of the algorithm that we were talking
`14 about earlier; how when these items arrive what --
`15 what's essentially going to happen, what the protocol
`16 is. And so this is just an -- this figure does not
`17 occur in Williams, that's true, but this is what the
`18 algorithm in -- in Williams describes to one who is
`19 skilled in the art who would be reading that.
`20 Q So the right-hand side, as you've referred
`21 to it, of the figure that appears on the top of page
`22 26 of your declaration describes the operations
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`1 performed by the computer that receives the file
`2 labeled D; is that right?
`3 A Yes, it's essentially a description of what
`4 that encoding of -- of D -- that particular encoding
`5 of D implies and means, yes.
`6 Q So it's the operations performed by the
`7 computer that receives D, correct?
`8 MR. KIKLIS: Objection to form.
`9 THE WITNESS: It's the operations the
`10 computer would perform if it wished to reconstruct a
`11 new file -- a new version of X given that it had the
`12 old version of X, which I believe in the -- in the --
`13 the thing is called Y.
`14 It does not say that the computer will
`15 necessarily do this. This is a backup system that is
`16 being described. So it would do that if it wished to
`17 reconstruct.
`18 BY MR. FAHMI:
`19 Q So you mentioned that Williams is describing
`20 a backup system?
`21 A Correct. It's the title of his -- of his --
`22 well, it's not actually. I thought that was the
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`1 title. It's -- let me -- he's describing a system
`2 that can be used for backup. The backup problem and
`3 the synchronization problem are highly related
`4 problems and, in fact, aren't -- aren't very different
`5 at all.
`6 Q If we call it a backup system for purposes
`7 of this deposition, can we agree that that's accurate?
`8 MR. KIKLIS: Objection to form.
`9 THE WITNESS: So I -- I don't think I
`10 would -- I would do that. Williams explicitly says
`11 that -- that it's really about the -- the method of
`12 breaking things up into subblocks and -- and -- and
`13 determining their boundaries and determining multiple
`14 overlapping subblocks. And then he says, and I quote,
`15 and this is from the abstract, "This leads to several
`16 applications including an incremental backup system
`17 that backs up changes rather than changed files." But
`18 he goes on to say it could also -- comma "or a utility
`19 that determines the similarities and differences
`20 between two files, a file system that stores each
`21 unique subblock at most once, and a communication
`22 system that eliminates the need to transmit subblocks
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`1 already possessed by the receiver."
`2 So I think that even though in my mind I was
`3 sort of thinking backup because that's the first one
`4 he mentioned, in fact, he envisions other possible
`5 uses of this algorithm right there in the abstract.
`6 Q When it's used as a backup system, the
`7 Williams algorithm determines whether or not to
`8 initiate that process based on examining the file, I
`9 think he calls it X, at computer E1; is that right?
`10 MR. KIKLIS: Objection to form.
`11 THE WITNESS: Can I ask for a clarification
`12 of the question?
`13 BY MR. FAHMI:
`14 Q Sure.
`15 A So first off you said -- so I'm not sure
`16 whether Williams was ever realized in a production
`17 system, so I would like to -- to caveat my answer by
`18 that, but if it was implemented as described.
`19 The second question I -- I missed the --
`20 what you said about --
`21 MR. KIKLIS: Can I suggest that you just --
`22 I don't want these to get all mixed up.
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`1 THE WITNESS: Mixed up.
`2 MR. KIKLIS: Yeah. Then you'd get all
`3 messed up.
`4 THE WITNESS: So can I go back --
`5 MR. KIKLIS: Oops. I'm sorry. That goes
`6 over here (indicating).
`7 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
`8 BY MR. FAHMI:
`9 Q Let me rephrase.
`10 A Yeah, can you -- yeah. I'm sorry. I got --
`11 I got lost in all that. Yeah.
`12 Q That's fine. No, not at all. If there's
`13 ever a point --
`14 A Right.
`15 Q -- in which something isn't clear or you're
`16 not sure what I'm asking you, just please let me know.
`17 I'm happy to rephrase it.
`18 A Okay
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