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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - -
` FORD MOTOR COMPANY
` Petitioner
` v.
` VERSATA SOFTWARE, INC.
` Patent Owner
` CASE CBM2016-00100 - Patent 8,805,825
` - and -
` FORD MOTOR COMPANY
` Petitioner
` v.
` VERSATA DEVELOPMENT GROUP, INC.
` Patent Owner
` CASE CBM2016-00101 - Patent 7,739,080
` - - -
` Wednesday, January 11, 2017
` 12:00 noon
`
` - - -
`
` TELECONFERENCE IN THE ABOVE MATTER
`
` - - -
`
` BEFORE: SALLY MEDLEY
` JAMES B. ARPIN
` KEVIN F. TURNER
` Administrative Patent Judges
` - - -
`
` VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
` MID-ATLANTIC REGION
` 1250 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1201
` Washington, DC 20005
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Versata 2012
`Ford v. Versata
`CBM2016-00100
`
`

`
`Page 2
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
` BROOKS KUSHMAN, P.C.
` BY: CHRISTOPHER C. SMITH, ESQUIRE
` THOMAS A. LEWRY, ESQUIRE
` 1000 Town Center, 22nd Floor
` Southfield, MI 48075-1238
` 248-358-4400
` csmith@brookskushman.com
` tlewry@brookskushman.com
` Representing the Petitioner
`
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX, P.L.L.C.
` BY: ROBERT GREENE STERNE, ESQUIRE
` MICHELLE K. HOLOUBEK, ESQUIRE
` SALVADOR M. BEZOS, ESQUIRE
` 1100 New York Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005-3934
` 202-371-2600
` rsterne-PTAB@skgf.com
` holoubek@skgf.com
` sbezos-PTAB@skgf.com
` and
` JONES & SPROSS, PLLC
` BY: SHAROON SALEEM, ESQUIRE
` 1605 Lakecliff Hills Lane, Suite 100
` Austin, TX 78732-2437
` 713-446-0217
` sharoon.saleem@jonesspross.com
` Representing the Patent Owner
`
` - - -
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` JUDGE MEDLEY: Good afternoon. This
`
`is Judge Medley along with Judges Turner and Arpin.
`
`This is a call regarding Proceeding CBM2016-00100
`
`and -00101.
`
` I'd like to begin with a roll call.
`
` For Petitioner?
`
` MR. SMITH: Good afternoon, Judge.
`
`This is Christopher Smith and Thomas Lewry on behalf
`
`of Ford Motor Company.
`
` MR. STERNE: Good afternoon, Judge
`
`Medley. This is Robert Sterne on behalf of Patent
`
`Owner, Versata; and on the call we have my
`
`colleague, Michele Holoubek, Sharoon Saleem, and Sal
`
`Bezos.
`
` I will say we also have a court
`
`reporter, Your Honor, who will be providing a
`
`transcript of the call for the record if you so
`
`request.
`
` And my final point is that I request
`
`that Michelle Holoubek speak on behalf of Patent
`
`Owner for the call today.
`
` JUDGE MEDLEY: Okay. Thank you very
`
`much.
`
` So, Patent Owner, did you request the
`
`court reporter?
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` MR. STERNE: Yes, Patent Owner
`
`requested the court reporter, Your Honor, and we're
`
`taking care of that for the Board.
`
` JUDGE MEDLEY: Okay. So as soon as
`
`possible, if you could file that as an exhibit, that
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`would be great.
`
` All right. We understand that
`
`Petitioner requests authorization to file a reply to
`
`address certain arguments made by the Patent Owner
`
`in its preliminary response.
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` Petitioner, you may proceed to
`
`explain your position.
`
` MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`So Christopher Smith on behalf of Ford Motor
`
`Company.
`
` So we request this opportunity to
`
`brief the specific issues raised in the Patent
`
`Owner's preliminary response specifically to the
`
`financial nature of the patents-in-suit or the
`
`patents at issue in the CBMs, and we think there is
`
`good cause basically for two reasons with respect to
`
`both CBMs and an additional reason for the other
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`one.
`
` With respect to the CBM2016-00100 and
`
`00101, we would like the opportunity to respond to
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`Petitioner's preliminary response on the Unwired
`
`Planet Federal Circuit decision which issued kind of
`
`in the pendency between the filing of the original
`
`petition and then the preliminary response.
`
` We believe that the standard at some
`
`level has changed, at least the standard as it was
`
`argued in several PTAB decisions prior to the
`
`Unwired Planet decision, so we would like the
`
`opportunity to address the arguments raised in view
`
`of Unwired Planet and deal with some level of change
`
`in law that would suffice as good cause to have a
`
`preliminary reply brief.
`
` With respect to the CBM2016-00100
`
`petition specifically, also during the pendency
`
`between the petition and the preliminary response
`
`the Patent Owner disclaimed certain dependent claims
`
`which actually expressly claimed that the
`
`independent claims that are also at issue in the
`
`CBMs are used for financial products and so we would
`
`like to address that argument.
`
` In the preliminary response the
`
`Patent Owner cites laws that basically says you just
`
`ignore it and you don't look at it, it's like it
`
`never existed, which we don't necessarily disagree
`
`with that statement.
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` However, there's additional PTAB law
`
`that says you may look at dependent claims and how
`
`it educates the independent claim and the scope of
`
`the independent claim, which is not an issue we
`
`specifically addressed in our original petition
`
`because it wasn't an issue because the claims hadn't
`
`been disclaimed yet, so we would contend that that
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`would be a change in fact, which would show good
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`cause for having a preliminary reply in this
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`situation.
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` As far as the schedule goes, my
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`understanding is that the institution deadline for
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`these petitions is going to be March 23rd, 2017. So
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`we would propose, if the Board allows a preliminary
`
`reply, that we would file the preliminary reply in
`
`two weeks, on January 25th, which would give plenty
`
`of time before the March 23rd date for the
`
`institution decision so the Board would not be
`
`prejudiced by that filing.
`
` Thank you, Your Honor.
`
` JUDGE MEDLEY: And how many pages?
`
`How many pages are you requesting?
`
` MR. SMITH: Ten pages for each CBM.
`
` JUDGE MEDLEY: Okay. Is that all?
`
` MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor.
`
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` JUDGE MEDLEY: Okay.
`
` Patent Owner, I'd like to hear from
`
`you, please.
`
` MS. HOLOUBEK: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`This is Michelle Holoubek speaking for the Patent
`
`Owner.
`
` THE COURT REPORTER: Michelle, could
`
`you please raise your volume or speak up.
`
` MS. HOLOUBEK: Is this better? Can
`
`you hear me now?
`
` THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, thank you.
`
` MS. HOLOUBEK: Okay. So I'll address
`
`first the Petitioner's comments regarding Unwired
`
`Planet and then I'll address the disclaimer issues
`
`second.
`
` So regarding Unwired Planet, that
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`decision did not change the law. Since its
`
`enactment, Section 18 has said that the Petitioner
`
`must show that the patent is directed to the
`
`practice, administration, or management of a
`
`financial product or service. Unwired Planet did
`
`not change that.
`
` There are other factors that the
`
`Board has additionally used to determine whether a
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`claim or the patent itself is completely ineligible,
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`and the Petitioner here should have addressed those
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`already.
`
` Ford's petition should have been
`
`complete when it was filed. Now there's no way that
`
`Ford can remedy its lack of analysis without adding
`
`new matter/new arguments. This fundamentally
`
`disrupts the CBM due process that the Petitioner is
`
`required to follow and that the Patent Owner should
`
`be able to rely on, particularly when the law and
`
`its application haven't changed.
`
` When we filed our POPR, our approach
`
`was predicated on the petition, and giving a redo
`
`opportunity to Ford to add new arguments to the
`
`petition disrupts that process and makes the Patent
`
`Owner incapable of properly responding to that.
`
` We note that if the Board decides
`
`anyway to give Ford a reply, then the Patent Owner
`
`should also be granted a sur-reply. As I mentioned,
`
`there is no way that Ford can recast its eligibility
`
`argument without adding new matter if they simply
`
`did not make those arguments before, and Patent
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`Owner should be allowed to reply to those new
`
`arguments.
`
` This is an issue that can only be
`
`addressed pre-institution and to make those changes
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`now seems like a fundamental shift in the
`
`Petitioner's arguments that the Patent Owner should
`
`be able to address if they're allowed to do that,
`
`although we want to make it clear that it's our
`
`position that Ford should not be allowed to go back
`
`and recast its arguments now once the fundamental
`
`law has not changed.
`
` Regarding the disclaimer, so in the
`
`CBM review, this has come up before. There are a
`
`number of cases from the Board, for instance, AT&T
`
`Mobility vs. Intellectual Ventures, which is
`
`CBM2015-00185, there's also CBM2016-00070, Plaid
`
`Technologies, where the claims were made
`
`pre-institution, and the Board has said that the
`
`claims are treated as though they have never existed
`
`and they will not consider the now statutorily
`
`dependent claims in their determination.
`
` Petitioner has known for some time
`
`now that they need to address all claims they intend
`
`to rely on should disclaimer come up and Ford chose
`
`not to do that. They did not address the issues
`
`that they now say are raised with regard to Claim 1.
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`They addressed only those claims that are now
`
`disclaimed. They did not address the independent
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`claims that they could have. They now say they want
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`to go back and address the independent claims. But
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`that's something that should have been done when the
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`petition was filed.
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` There are some cases -- well, only
`
`one that we know of -- where claims were disclaimed
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`post-institution and the Board has not gone back and
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`changed its institution decision. But this is
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`pre-institution and the Board's decisions so far
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`follow the law that those claims simply don't exist.
`
` So we do not believe that the
`
`additional briefing should be given now to allow
`
`Ford to go back and, again, redo its petition to do
`
`what it should have done in the first place.
`
` JUDGE MEDLEY: Okay. Thank you.
`
` Petitioner, you may briefly respond
`
`before the panel confers on the issue.
`
` MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
` Well, on the first point regarding
`
`Unwired Planet, I would just submit that the
`
`underlying PTAB decision in Unwired Planet
`
`specifically said that the proper inquiry is whether
`
`the patent claim claims activities that are
`
`financial in nature, incidental to a financial
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`activity, or complementary to a financial activity.
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` The Federal Circuit obviously
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`subsequently, in November, reversed course on that
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`and that standard is exactly what the preliminary
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`response raises as an incorrect standard. So I
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`would argue that Unwired Planet, at least in view of
`
`this PTAB decision in the Unwired Planet CBM, is a
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`change in law that we ought to be able to address.
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` And I would also add that it's not
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`that the statute doesn't apply. I think it's that
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`the language in the earlier PTAB decisions regarding
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`"incidental to a financial activity" language was an
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`interpretation of the statute and the Federal
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`Circuit has changed that interpretation now in a way
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`that we would like an opportunity to address in our
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`reply.
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` Regarding the second issue, as far as
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`the disclaimer issue, first of all, Ford only had
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`to, under the rules, identify one particular claim
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`on which it's seeking CBM qualification. At the
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`time when we filed the petition, there had been no
`
`disclaimer so we had no reason to believe we
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`couldn't rely on the dependent claims.
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` But I would also add that we did
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`point to independent claims as well as the basis for
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`why there should be CBM qualification, but we didn't
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`make the specific argument that I am proposing now
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`with respect to the dependent claim, reading into
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`the scope or interpreting or broadening the scope of
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`the independent claim to cover financial, because it
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`wasn't necessary when the dependent claim hadn't
`
`been disclaimed.
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` So we would like that opportunity
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`now, which has been at least contemplated by other
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`PTAB Boards in the past. Thank you, Your Honor.
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` MS. HOLOUBEK: Your Honor, may I
`
`respond briefly to that?
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` JUDGE MEDLEY: Sure, just one last
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`point and then we're going to wrap up.
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` MS. HOLOUBEK: Sure. Just regarding
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`the disclaimer issue, it has been said many times
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`that when the disclaimer occurs, it is as though
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`those claims had never existed; and therefore when
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`the Petitioner just mentioned that they want to talk
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`about a broadening of scope or something along those
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`lines that has somehow been due to the claims
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`disclaimed, then it's just inappropriate to talk
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`about the effect that these now disclaimed dependent
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`claims have on the independent claims.
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` JUDGE MEDLEY: Okay. All right. I
`
`think we understand.
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` We're going to take a recess and we
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`will get back on the line in just a minute, so
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`please do not hang up.
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` MS. HOLOUBEK: Thank you, Your Honor.
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` MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
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` - - -
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` (Whereupon there was a recess in the
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`proceedings.)
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` - - -
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` JUDGE MEDLEY: Okay. I'm back.
`
` The panel believes that some limited
`
`additional briefing would be helpful. So we are
`
`going to authorize further briefing by both parties.
`
`We will limit the briefing to three pages each on
`
`each paper.
`
` And, Petitioner, your response will
`
`be due a week from today, the 18th of January.
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` And, Patent Owner, your sur-reply
`
`will be due January 25th.
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` And we'll memorialize this in an
`
`order that will go shortly, but we just wanted to
`
`let the parties know when your respective papers
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`would be due.
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` So that, Petitioner, you can go ahead
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`and get busy formulating that, but it is limited to
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`three pages and it's directed only to the two issues
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`that we've discussed today, so no other further
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`briefing on any issues; just the Unwired Planet
`
`issue and the disclaimer issue.
`
` Are there any questions?
`
` MR. SMITH: One, Your Honor. I just
`
`want to make sure that this preliminary reply will
`
`be a preliminary reply for the 00100 CBM and then a
`
`preliminary reply three pages long for the 00101
`
`CBM; correct?
`
` JUDGE MEDLEY: Yes. I'm sorry; I was
`
`not clear about that. Yes, it would be four papers
`
`total, so two in 00100 and two in 00101, each
`
`limited to three pages.
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` MR. SMITH: Okay. Thank you, Your
`
`Honor.
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` MS. HOLOUBEK: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
` JUDGE MEDLEY: Any other questions?
`
` MS. HOLOUBEK: None from Patent
`
`Owner.
`
` JUDGE MEDLEY: Okay. Thank you for
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`your participation. We are adjourned.
`
` MR. SMITH: Thank you.
`
` MS. HOLOUBEK: Thank you.
`
` - - -
`
` (Whereupon the conference call
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`a d j o u r n e d a t 1 2 : 1 5 p . m . )
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` C E R T I F I C A T I O N
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`Page 16
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` I, Susan Marie Migatz, RMR, CRR, do hereby
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`certify the foregoing is a true and correct
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`transcript from the conference call held in the
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`proceedings in the above-entitled matter.
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`<%signature%> January 12, 2017
`
`____________________________ _________________
`
`SUSAN MARIE MIGATZ, RMR, CRR DATE
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`arguments 4:9 5:9
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`claims 5:16,18 6:2
`6:6 9:13,15,17,19
`9:23,25 10:1,5,9
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`[claims - issue]
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`10:22 11:21,23
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`11:11,12
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`[issue - predicated]
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`

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`[prejudiced - town]
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`[trademark - york]
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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