10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - -
` IBG LLC and INTERACTIVE BROKERS LLC;
` Petitioners
` v.
` TRADING TECHNOLOGIES INTERNATIONAL, INC.;
` Patent Owner
` - - -
` Cases CBM2016-00009
` Patent Nos. 7,685,055
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF HAROLD ABILOCK
` Friday, October 21, 2016
` Washington, D.C.
` 12:50 p.m.
`
` Reported by: Susan Ashe, RMR, CRR
`_______________________________________________
` DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
` 1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
` Washington, D.C. 20036
` (202)232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
`
`IBG 1068
`IBG v. TT
`CBM2016-00054
`
`
`
`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
`
`Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - -
` IBG LLC and INTERACTIVE BROKERS LLC;
` Petitioners
` v.
` TRADING TECHNOLOGIES INTERNATIONAL, INC.;
` Patent Owner
` - - -
` Cases CBM2016-00009
` Patent Nos. 7,685,055
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF HAROLD ABILOCK
` Friday, October 21, 2016
` Washington, D.C.
` 12:50 p.m.
`
` Reported by: Susan Ashe, RMR, CRR
`_______________________________________________
` DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
` 1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
` Washington, D.C. 20036
` (202)232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
`
`IBG 1068
`IBG v. TT
`CBM2016-00054
`
`
`
`10/21/2016
`
`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
`
`Page 2
`
` The oral deposition of HAROLD ABILOCK was
`taken at the law offices of Finnegan, Henderson,
`Farabow, Garrett & Dunner, LLP, 901 New York Avenue,
`Northwest, Washington, D.C., on Friday, October 21,
`2016, commencing at 12:50 p.m., in the presence of
`counsel for the parties.
` It was agreed that Susan Ashe, Registered
`Merit Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
`District of Columbia, would take said deposition in
`machine shorthand and, when requested, transcribe
`the same to typewriting by means of computer-aided
`transcription.
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`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 3
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`APPEARANCES:
` STERNE KESSLER GOLDSTEIN FOX P.L.L.C.
` BY: RICHARD M. BEMBEN, ESQ.
` ROBERT SOKOHL, ESQ.
` 1100 New York Avenue, Northwest
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` (202) 371-2600
` Counsel on behalf of the Petitioner
`
` FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT &
` DUNNER, LLP
` BY: KEVIN D. RODKEY, ESQ.
` 271 17th Street, Northwest, Suite 1400
` Atlanta, Georgia 30363-6209
` (404) 653-6400
` - and -
` McDONNELL BOEHNEN HULBERT & BERGHOFF LLP
` BY: LEIF SIGMOND, JR., ESQ.
` 300 South Wacker Drive
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
` (312) 913-0001
` Counsel on behalf of the Patent Owner
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`10/21/2016
`
`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
`
` INDEX
`WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
`HAROLD ABILOCK Mr. Bemben 5
`
`Page 4
`
` EXHIBITS
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
` (None)
`
` INSTRUCT THE WITNESS
`Page/Line Page/Line Page/Line
` 49/3 54/10 55/4
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 5
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
`Whereupon,
` HAROLD ABILOCK,
`the Witness, called for examination, having been
`first duly sworn according to law, was examined and
`testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. BEMBEN:
` Q. Please state your full name for the
`record.
` A. Harold Abilock.
` Q. I'm Richard Bemben. I'm back-up counsel
`for petitioners.
` With me here is Robert Sokohl. He's lead
`counsel for petitioners.
` MR. BEMBEN: Why don't you go ahead
`and introduce yourself for the record, Kevin.
` MR. RODKEY: This is Kevin Rodkey,
`with Finnegan, for patent owner, Trading
`Technologies.
` With me is Leif Sigmond, also counsel
`for Trading Technologies.
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 6
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` MR. BEMBEN: Thank you.
`BY MR. BEMBEN:
` Q. Mr. Abilock, you've been deposed before.
`Correct?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. How many times?
` A. Once.
` Q. Okay. So I'm going to go over the ground
`rules for you.
` Okay. So I'll be asking the questions
`today, and you'll answer my questions.
` If you don't answer a question that I ask,
`please ask me to clarify it. Okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. But if you answer my question, I'll assume
`that you've understood my question.
` Is that fair?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Please provide clear, verbal responses.
` I can see head nods, but the reporter
`can't transcribe them. So it's really important, to
`develop a clear record, that you provide verbal
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
`
`Page 7
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`responses. Okay?
` A. I understand.
` Q. Along the same lines, let's try not to
`speak over each other. So please allow me to finish
`my question, and I'll allow you to finish your
`answer.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And we'll take periodic breaks.
` But if you need a break anytime during the
`deposition, just let me know. The only thing that I
`ask you is that you finish the question that's
`pending.
` Is that fair?
` A. Understood.
` Q. So you've been sworn in. And you
`understand that you're under oath. Correct?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Are you taking any medication that would
`prevent you from testifying truthfully today?
` A. No.
` Q. Is there any reason at all that you cannot
`provide truthful testimony today?
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 8
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` A. No.
` Q. Mr. Abilock, are you a lawyer?
` A. No.
` Q. Are you testifying today as an expert?
` A. I am an expert in Japanese-English
`translation, and I've written this declaration.
` I am an expert on Japanese-English
`translation, and I have been asked to write a
`declaration.
` Q. Are you an expert in anything besides
`Japanese-English translation?
` A. Well, I have a good background in other
`subjects, yes.
` Q. But are you an expert in anything besides
`Japanese-English translation?
` MR. RODKEY: Objection; legal
`conclusion.
` Q. Would you consider yourself an expert in
`anything besides Japanese-English translation?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What would you consider yourself an expert
`in?
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 9
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` A. Computer science.
` Q. What qualifies you as an expert in
`computer science?
` A. I have a degree in computer engineering.
` Q. What degree do you have in computer
`engineering?
` A. A bachelor's degree.
` Q. And so to you, that qualifies you as an
`expert in computer engineering?
` A. No; it's the addition of many years of
`work in the field.
` Q. Are you testifying today as an expert in
`computer engineering?
` A. No.
` Q. You understand that you're here today to
`testify in CBM2016-00009. Correct?
` A. I don't have the documents in front of me,
`but that number sounds correct.
` Q. Okay. Do you understand that this
`proceeding is a Covered Business Method review of
`U.S. Patent No. 7,685,055?
` A. Well, again, I don't have the documents in
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
`
`10/21/2016
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 10
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`front of me.
` But if you are reading them correctly, I
`assume that is the case.
` Q. Okay. Mr. Abilock, I'm going to hand you
`what's been marked Trading Tech Exhibit 2334 in
`CBM2016-00009.
` MR. RODKEY: Counsel, can I get one
`of those, please.
` MR. SOKOHL: Yes.
` MR. RODKEY: Thank you.
` MR. SOKOHL: I have a job, but I'm
`not even doing it.
`BY MR. BEMBEN:
` Q. Mr. Abilock, do you know what this
`document is?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. What is it?
` A. This is -- just a moment, please. I'd
`like to just take a quick look.
` (Witness perusing.)
` A. Yeah, this is the declaration that I have
`written.
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 11
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` Q. Is that your signature on page 12?
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. As you sit here today, are there any
`corrections that you'd like to make to this
`declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. To make this easy, I'm going to give you
`your second declaration.
` So I'm handing you Trading Tech
`Exhibit 2339 in CBM2016-00009.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. Please take a minute to review it.
` (Witness perusing.)
` Q. Do you know what this document is?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. What is it?
` A. It is my declaration that I have written.
` Q. Okay. And is that your signature on
`page 33?
` A. It is.
` Q. As you sit here today, are there any
`corrections to Exhibit 2339 that you'd like to make?
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 12
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` A. No.
` Q. So it's complete and accurate?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you.
` So let me ask you a question....
` So you have the documents in front of you
`now. Let me just ask you those same questions as
`before, just to make sure the record's clear.
` So you understand that you're here to
`testify about CBM2016-00009. Correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you understand that this
`proceeding is a Covered Business Method review of
`U.S. Patent No. 7,685,055. Correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. Are you testifying here as an
`expert in anything other than Japanese-English
`translation?
` A. No.
` MR. RODKEY: Objection; legal
`conclusion.
` Q. Can you repeat your answer for the record.
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
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`202-232-0646
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 13
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` A. "No."
` Q. Thank you.
` Let me ask you this: If I refer to
`U.S. Patent No. 7,685,055 as the "'055 patent,"
`would you know what I'm referring to?
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. For today's deposition, can we
`refer to U.S. Patent No. 7,685,055 as the "'055
`patent"?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Okay -- and you'll understand that that's
`what I'm referring to?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Have you reviewed the '055 patent?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you know what the term "person of
`ordinary skill in the art at the time of the
`invention" means?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What does it mean?
` A. It depends on the circumstances.
` Q. Well, what does it mean to you?
`
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 14
` A. Generally speaking, to me? -- it means
`someone who has a second-year college-level
`understanding of a subject matter -- not a person
`with two Ph.D.s in the field, not a high school
`student.
` Q. Do you have an opinion as to the
`definition of "a person of ordinary skill in the
`art" at the time of the invention for the '055
`patent, specifically?
` MR. RODKEY: Objection; scope, legal
`conclusion.
` MR. BEMBEN: Why is that outside the
`scope, Counsel?
` MR. RODKEY: He hasn't testified on a
`person of ordinary skill in the art.
` Q. You could still answer the question.
` A. No.
` Q. Let's turn to Exhibit 2334.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Please turn to page 7.
` In paragraph 18, you provide a table.
` There's two columns in the table.
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 15
` On the left-hand side is "Source, Japanese
`text." And on the right-hand side or the second
`column is "English translation text."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Okay. And this is text of Bullet 3 on
`page -0091 of the TSE document. Correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. Is the English translation in the
`second column accurate, in your opinion?
` A. To the best of my ability, it is accurate.
` Q. Thank you.
` I hate to jump around like this. But
`let's go to Exhibit 2339, please. And I'll direct
`you to page 8 -- pages 7 and 8, which is paragraph
`18.
` A. I'm sorry -- pages 7 and 8?
` Q. Yeah, pages 7 and 8.
` So there's a table on page 8, but it's
`kind of in paragraph 18.
` A. Got it.
` Q. Okay. So do you see that?
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 16
` And again -- there's a table, two columns.
` On the left-hand side, it says "Source,
`Japanese text"; and on the right-hand side or the
`second column, it says "English translation text."
`Correct?
` A. Um-hum -- yes.
` Q. The "Source, Japanese text" -- that's in
`Bullet 11, which spans pages -0111 through -0112 of
`the TSE document.
` Is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. Is the English translation in the
`second column of that table accurate, in your
`opinion?
` A. To the best of my ability.
` Q. Thank you.
` So Mr. Abilock, let's back up a second.
` What did you do to prepare for this
`deposition?
` A. Well, I reviewed these two declarations.
` Q. Anything else?
` A. Yes. I also had conversations with
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`Page 17
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`counsel.
` Q. You met with counsel?
` MR. RODKEY: And I just want to
`caution the witness not to discuss the substance of
`conversations with counsel.
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. When did you meet with counsel?
` A. Yesterday.
` Q. For how long did you meet with counsel?
` A. Half the morning and half the afternoon,
`something like that.
` Q. And when you say "counsel," do you mean
`Mr. Rodkey and Mr. Sigmond?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Anyone else?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you review any documents to prepare
`for this -- besides the two that you identified,
`Exhibit 2334 and Exhibit 2339, your declarations --
`besides those.
` A. Yeah -- oh, the translation for Chapter 7
`is included in this document here.
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
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`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 18
` So that's also what I translated -- I'm
`sorry, reviewed.
` Q. When you say "this document" --
` A. The appendices to my declaration -- yeah,
`they're included here.
` So the answer would be "no."
` Q. Okay. Just your declarations?
` A. Just my declarations --
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
` A. -- including the appendices, yeah.
` Q. Did you review Exhibit 1007 or 1008, which
`is the TSE Japanese translation?
` A. Oh, yes, you're right. I did look at
`that, yeah.
` Q. Anything besides those documents?
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. Did you review the reply filed by
`Trading Technologies, the patent owner in this case?
` A. I didn't know there was a reply.
` Q. Did you review the petition by petitioners
`in this case?
` A. No.
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
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`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 19
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` There's another document that I did
`review; and that was the transcript from a previous
`deposition, my previous deposition.
` Q. Was that a deposition in TD Ameritrade
`versus Trading Technologies CBM2014-00137?
` A. I don't have the document in front of me.
`But --
` Q. Was that last year?
` A. -- if that's correct, yes, it was.
` Q. And that was the case that you were
`deposed in.
` Is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
` So in preparing Exhibits 2334 and 2339,
`did you review any documents other than those that
`you've identified today?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you write those declarations?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. Just out of curiosity, why the two
`different declarations? Was there a reason for
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 20
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`that, or did it just happen that way?
` MR. RODKEY: I'm going to object on
`privilege, and caution you not to discuss -- or not
`to reveal the substance of conversations with
`counsel.
` So to the extent you can answer
`without doing that, go ahead.
` Q. You could still answer that question.
` A. Yeah, sure.
` I don't know the reason.
` Q. You don't; okay.
` Are you being represented by counsel
`today?
` A. I don't think so.
` Q. So --
` A. I'm not sure about the legal status.
` MR. RODKEY: We are representing him
`in his deposition.
` Q. Okay. So when they give you instructions
`about not answering questions due to attorney-client
`privilege, are you going to accept those
`instructions -- are you going to follow them?
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
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`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 21
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` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you write your declarations,
`Exhibits 2334 and 2339?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. You wrote all the words?
` A. All the words.
` Q. How much time did you spend preparing
`these declarations?
` You could just estimate.
` A. Both of them, together?
` Q. Together.
` A. Oh, gosh....
` Q. Well, let's back up. Let's start with
`one.
` How long did it take you to prepare
`Exhibit 2334?
` A. 2334?
` One is longer than the other, as you may
`know. So the 2334 one is the longer one, I
`believe....
` No; the opposite.
` Okay, yes. Okay. So I would say maybe 15
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
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`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 22
`hours for the 2334 one and maybe 20, 25 hours -- 20,
`25 hours or so -- 20 hours or so for the 2339.
` Q. Okay. So approximately, maybe 40 hours
`for the combined work?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In paragraph 15, you mentioned -- in
`paragraph 15 of Exhibit 2334 --
` A. Paragraph 15 of...?
` Q. Exhibit 2334.
` A. 2334, um-hum -- yes.
` Q. You mentioned that you reviewed
`Exhibit 1007 of CBM2016-00009, which is the TSE
`Japanese language version. Correct?
` A. Right.
` Q. Did you review that document in its
`entirety?
` A. Did you say that it says I reviewed the
`document?
` Q. You mentioned -- I'm sorry, let me back
`up.
` You mentioned Exhibit 1007.
` A. Um-hum. What was your question again?
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
`
`10/21/2016
`
`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 23
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` Q. Did you review that document?
` A. No. I only referenced it.
` Q. You only referenced it; okay.
` How about, paragraph 15 also mentions
`Exhibit 1008. Correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you review Exhibit 1008?
` A. Did I review it?
` Q. Yes.
` A. No. I referenced it.
` Q. You referenced it.
` So what does that mean? What's the
`difference between reviewing and referencing it?
` A. Well, when I review a document, it means I
`read it cover to cover.
` Q. Okay. So you did not read Exhibit 1008.
`Correct?
` A. Or 1007.
` Q. In preparing your declaration, you did not
`read Exhibits 1007 or 1008. Correct?
` A. I did not --
` MR. RODKEY: Objection; form.
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
`
`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 24
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` Q. Read.
` A. -- read?
` Well, I read selective portions of it.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I did not review it.
` Q. Okay. Let's start with Exhibit 1008.
` A. Yes.
` Q. What portions did you read?
` A. Oh, what portions did I read....
` Q. Well, let me do this. Let me give you the
`exhibit.
` A. Well, I -- yeah, that would be helpful.
` Q. Okay. Mr. Abilock I'm going to hand you
`what's been marked IBG 1008 in CBM2016-00009.
` Okay. So we're still talking about
`Exhibit 2334.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. What portions of Exhibit 1008 did
`you review in preparing your declaration, which is
`Exhibit 2334?
` A. Well, honestly, I don't recall -- outside
`of Chapter 7, which I did review -- which pages
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 25
`outside of Chapter 7 I referenced, I couldn't say --
`kind of like random.
` In one of these declarations, I mention
`that I flipped through all the pages looking for
`instances of a particular screenshot.
` But my looking through the document looks
`like this -- (demonstrating).
` So I wasn't actually reading it.
` Q. So you flipped through?
` A. Flipped through it, exactly.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Maybe I stopped on a page here or I
`stopped on a page there, but I didn't make a record
`of which pages I stopped.
` I stopped on a page that may have looked
`like a board screen because I was looking for
`something in the graphics.
` Q. I see. So it's fair to say that you
`focused on Chapter 7 when you prepared your
`declaration in Exhibit 2334?
` A. Definitely.
` Q. Okay. Let's focus on Chapter -- or, I'm
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
`
`10/21/2016
`
`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 26
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`sorry, paragraph 17 of the same exhibit, 2334.
` And there you mention a list of reference
`works considered in the present declaration.
` That list includes a single document:
`Appendix A. Correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And I'll just read that.
` (Reading:) Appendix A is my 2007
`translation of pages TSE 0000000737 through -766 of
`TSE.
` Correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. So that's a translation that you did in
`2007. Correct?
` A. It is.
` Q. And in preparing this declaration, did you
`reference anything besides Appendix A?
` A. Okay. So there's going to be, you know,
`some difficulty with me switching back and forth
`between the two declarations.
` It gets a little confusing.
` In order for me to really answer these
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
`
`10/21/2016
`
`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 27
`questions reliably, I'm going to have to take some
`time, because the content of the two declarations is
`different and I can't recall exactly which
`declaration we're talking about.
` Q. Okay. Go ahead.
` A. Yeah. If we stick with one declaration at
`a time, maybe that might -- it might help me a
`little bit.
` But if we're going to keep flipping back
`and forth --
` Q. Oh. Well, we're just sticking with -- I
`think we were just sticking with 2334 for now.
` A. For now, okay.
` Q. So for now -- 2334.
` A. Yes.
` Q. In paragraph 17, you listed the reference
`works.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you only listed Appendix A.
`Correct?
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 28
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` A. That I did.
` Q. Did you rely on anything else in forming
`this opinion?
` A. To the best of my recollection, no.
` Q. Okay.
` A. With the caveat that I was writing two
`declarations and I referenced different documents
`with the two different declarations.
` Q. Okay. Well, let's turn to Exhibit 2339,
`the other declaration.
` A. Yes.
` Q. So in this declaration, I didn't see a
`similar list of documents that you referenced.
` Is that correct?
` If you leaf through, let me know.
` (Witness complies.)
` A. I guess that section may be missing. Let
`me double-check.
` (Witness perusing.)
` A. So formally, in Exhibit 2339, a section
`labeled "Reference Works" that does appear in
`Exhibit 2334 seems to be omitted.
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
`10/21/2016
`
`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 29
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` However, the documents that I did
`reference in the course of preparing this
`declaration are, in fact, cited within the document
`itself.
` So it can -- although not formally listed,
`those documents are listed in other places within
`the declaration.
` For example, paragraph 15 mentions
`Exhibit 1007 -- and so on.
` Q. So I was just going to ask you: What are
`those documents, then?
` It's Exhibit 1007 --
` A. Um-hum.
` Q. -- and what else?
` A. So I need to, again, see which appendices
`are in this.
` They have different appendices.
` Well, without going through the entire
`document right now, the only one that I do see is
`listed in paragraph 15, which mentions Exhibit 1007.
` But if I spent more time, I may notice --
`for example, on page 16 at the top, I see Exhibits
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`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 30
`1007 and 1008 referenced. And in paragraph 26,
`Exhibits 1007 and 1008 are referenced.
` So it appears to be that the only
`documents that I referenced in the course of
`preparing the 2339 declaration are those two
`exhibits, 1007 and 1008.
` Q. Thank you.
` Okay. So let's turn to Exhibit 2334.
` You can set 2339 aside for now.
` So as we mentioned, in this declaration
`you have an appendix, which is your 2007
`translation. Correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. It's Appendix A?
` A. Um-hum.
` Q. Do you stand by that translation? Is that
`translation accurate?
` A. Well, I have reviewed it. But I didn't
`check the translation -- you know, cover-to-cover
`kind of thing.
` Q. Sure. When you provided that translation
`in 2007, to the best of your knowledge was it
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
`
`202-232-0646
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`
`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
`
`Harold Abilock
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`Page 31
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`accurate?
` A. It was accurate when I presented it -- to
`the best of my ability at the time.
` Q. And do you have any reason to believe that
`it's no longer accurate today?
` A. No, I don't.
` Q. Okay. So please turn to page -0091 of
`TSE.
` And let me actually -- let me bring you to
`the page -- well, here. Keep it -- I'm sorry. Back
`up and ask that question again. So strike that.
` Page 15 of your declaration -- please turn
`to page 15 of your declaration.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would you go ahead and take a minute to
`review that page.
` A. The whole page?
` Q. The whole page.
` (Witness perusing.)
` Q. Okay. So I'm going to flip around a
`little bit here.
` Can you turn to page -0091 of Exhibit 1008
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`Page 32
`that I gave you, the English language translation of
`TSE.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So is the page that you have
`listed, page 15 of your declaration, the same page
`that you're referring to at -0091 in the TSE
`document?
` A. Just with a quick scan, it appears to be
`so.
` Q. Okay. And is page 15 -- that's accurate,
`as you mentioned earlier -- right? -- your
`translation of 2007.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. In paragraph 23 of your
`declaration, you opine that Bullet 3 on that page is
`ambiguous. Correct?
` A. What paragraph are we again?
` Q. Paragraph 23.
` A. Okay. Well, it actually says that the
`timing with which the automatic updating occurs is
`ambiguous.
` Q. Okay. And that's referring to Bullet 3 --
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2016
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`202-232-0646
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`10/21/2016
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`IBG LLC, et al. v. Trading Technologies International, Inc.
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`Harold Abilock
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`Page 33
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` A. Yes.
` Q. -- of that page. Correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. Is that still your opinion, sitting
`here today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. What did you mean by "ambigu
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