`
` IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
` FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
` EASTERN DIVISION
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES )
`INTERNATIONAL, INCORPORATED, )
` )
` Plaintiff, )
` )
` -vs- ) No. 04 CV 5312
` )
`eSPEED, INCORPORATED; eSPEED )
`INTERNATIONAL, LTD.; ECCO LLC; )
`and ECCOWARE LTD.; )
` )
` Defendants. )
`-------------------------------)
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES )
`INTERNATIONAL INCORPORATED, )
` )
` Plaintiff, )
` )
` -vs- ) No. CV 1079
` )
`REFCO GROUP, LTD., LCC; et al.;)
` )
` Defendants. )
`-------------------------------)
`ROSENTHAL COLLINS GROUP, LLC, )
` )
` Plaintiff and )
` Counterclaim Defendant,)
` )
` -vs- ) No. 05 CV 4088
` )
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES )
`INTERNATIONAL INCORPORATED, )
` )
` Defendant and )
` Counterclaimant. )
`-------------------------------)
`
`(cid:51)(cid:68)(cid:74)(cid:72)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:3)(cid:82)(cid:73)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:21)(cid:22)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)(cid:3)
`
`IBG 1034
`CBM of U.S. Pat. No. 7,676,411
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES )
`INTERNATIONAL, INCORPORATED )
` )
` Plaintiff, )
` )
` -vs- ) No. 05 CV 4120
` )
`GL CONSULTANTS, INCORPORATED )
`and GL TRADE SA, )
` )
` Defendants. )
`---------------------------------)
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES )
`INTERNATIONAL, INCORPORATED, )
` )
` -vs- ) No. 05 CV 4137
` )
`PEREGRINE FINANCIAL GROUP, )
`INCORPORATED and TRADEMAVEN, LLC,)
` Defendants. )
`---------------------------------)
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES )
`INTERNATIONAL, INCORPORATED, )
` )
` Plaintiff, )
` )
` -vs- ) No. 05 CV 4811
` )
`CQGT, LLC and CQG, INCORPORATED, )
` )
` Defendants. )
`---------------------------------)
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES )
`INTERNATIONAL, INCORPORATED, )
` )
` Plaintiff, )
` )
` -vs- ) No. 05 CV 5164
` )
`FUTUREPATH TRADING, LLC, )
` )
` Defendant. )
`
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`Page 3
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` Videotaped deposition of CHRISTOPHER THOMAS,
`taken before NICOLE MARIE DeBARTOLO, C.S.R., R.P.R.,
`pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure for
`the United States Courts pertaining to the taking of
`depositions for the purpose of discovery, at 35 West
`Wacker Drive, Conference Room 35B, Chicago, Illinois,
`commencing at 9:38 a.m., on the 14th day of August,
`2007.
` * * * * * * * *
` There were present at the taking of this
`deposition the following counsel:
`
` McDONNELL BOEHNEN HULBERT & BERGHOFF LLP by
` MR. MICHAEL D. GANNON
` 300 South Wacker Drive
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
` (312) 913-0001
` gannon@mbhb.com
` on behalf of Trading Technologies
` International, Incorporated;
` WINSTON & STRAWN by
` MR. RAYMOND C. PERKINS
` 35 West Wacker Drive, Suite 4100
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
` (312) 558-5700
` rperkins@winston.com
` on behalf of the Defendants
` eSpeed, Incorporated; eSpeed
` International, Ltd.; Ecco LLC, and
` EccoWare Ltd.
`
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` ATTENDANCES CONTINUED:
` FAEGRE & BENSON by
` MS. NINA Y. WANG
` 3200 Wells Fargo Center
` 1700 Lincoln Street
` Denver, Colorado 80203-4532
` (303) 607-3500
` nwang@faegre.com
` on behalf of the Defendants
` CQGT, LLC and CQG, Incorporated;
` ALSO PRESENT:
` MR. STEVE F. BORSAND,
` Trading Technologies International, Incorporated
` MR. WALTER CWIK,
` Legal Videographer
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`Page 5
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` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` CHRISTOPHER THOMAS
` taken August 14, 2007
`EXAMINATION BY PAGE
`Examination By Mr. Perkins 7
`Examination By Mr. Gannon 183
`Examination By Mr. Perkins 195
`
` EXHIBITS
` PAGE
`Defendant's Exhibit No. 798 20
`Defendant's Exhibit No. 799 38
`Defendant's Exhibit No. 800 43
`Defendant's Exhibit No. 801 74
`Defendant's Exhibit No. 802 154
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins Tape No. 1 in the
`videotaped deposition of Christopher Thomas in the
`matter of Trading Technologies, Inc. versus eSpeed,
`Inc. in the United States District Court, Northern
`District of Illinois, Eastern Division, Case
`No. 04 C 5312.
` This deposition is being held at 35 West
`Wacker, Chicago, Illinois, on August 14th, 2007 at
`approximately 9:38. My name is Walter Cwik, and I am
`a certified legal video specialist from Merrill Legal
`Solutions. The court reporter today is Nicole
`DeBartolo in association with Merrill Legal
`Solutions.
` Will counsel please introduce themselves for
`the record.
` MR. PERKINS: Good morning. My name is Ray
`Perkins from Winston & Strawn representing the
`defendants eSpeed and Ecco.
` MR. GANNON: My name is Mike Gannon. I'm with
`McDonald Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff, here today on
`behalf of plaintiff Trading Technologies, and with me
`is Steve Borsand, in-house counsel, Trading
`Technologies.
` MS. WANG: Good morning. Nina Wang with the law
`
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`firm of Faeger & Benson representing the CQG
`defendants.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter please
`swear in the witness.
` CHRISTOPHER THOMAS,
`called as a witness herein, having been first duly
`sworn, was examined upon oral interrogatories and
`testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q Sir, could you please tell us your name?
` A Christopher Thomas.
` Q Could you speak up a little bit, please.
` A I said Christopher Thomas.
` Q And where do you live?
` A In Chicago.
` Q And where -- what's your address?
` A 1341 West Fletcher Street, Chicago, 60657.
` Q And are you currently employed?
` A Yes.
` Q And where are you employed?
` A At TD Securities.
` Q And what do you do for TD Securities?
` A I manage a portfolio.
`
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` Q Manage port -- you say you manage a
`portfolio. Could you describe specifically what you
`do?
` A It's -- it's a portfolio of stocks and
`indexes.
` Q And how long have you been at TD Securities?
` A Since they acquired Stafford Trading, which
`occurred on February the 28th, 2002. Previously I
`was with Stafford Trading.
` Q Since you've been at TD Securities, have you
`developed any electronic trading systems?
` A No.
` Q Since 2002, has anyone ever asked for your
`input in developing electronic trading systems?
` A In -- they have asked for my input for
`systems that I developed previous to that.
` Q Okay. Other than that, since 2002, has
`anyone asked for your input in designing electronic
`trading systems?
` A What do -- what exactly do you mean by
`electronic trading systems? That's a pretty broad
`topic to me.
` Q Sure.
` Do you have an understanding of what I mean
`
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`by an electronic trading system?
` A It could be a lot of things to me.
` Q Well, what's your understanding of it?
` A It could be an electronic order entry
`product, which would allow you to send orders to
`exchanges; it could be a system that will monitor the
`market via certain algorithms that come up with buy
`and sell, recommendations or rules; it could be a
`risk system for looking at a portfolio and managing
`the risk of it. It could be -- that's what I can
`think of right now.
` Q So since 2002 has anyone sought your input in
`designing an electronic trading system for order
`entry?
` A Not a new one. Just on what I had done
`previously.
` Q Since you've been in the TD Securities, have
`you followed in the industry the development of
`electronic trading systems for order entry?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And tell me -- tell me about that.
` A Well, as part of my day-to-day business we
`use order entry products at TD a lot. So I have to
`keep up with it.
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` Q What order entry products do you use at TD?
` A Our own. They're proprietary.
` Q And what does the -- the trading screen --
`strike the question.
` In the proprietary -- do you have a name for
`this proprietary trading system?
` A TD-1.
` Q And what kind of instruments do you trade on
`TD-1?
` A Stocks, futures, options, stock options.
` Q Any others?
` A No.
` Q And what kind of exchanges do you trade on
`with TD-1?
` A It's not just exchanges. For stocks, you
`have the -- the U.S. exchanges, plus some of the ECN
`destinations, couple of broker trading desks for
`futures, the U.S. futures exchanges. For options,
`the U.S. option -- equity options exchanges like the
`Chicago Board of Option Exchange, ISE, et cetera.
` Q When you say U.S. futures exchanges, which
`exchanges are you referring to that you trade on --
` A That I particularly trade on, the Chicago
`Mercantile Exchange.
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` Q What other U.S. futures exchange -- exchanges
`does TD Securities trade on using TD-1?
` A I don't do it myself, but I believe the
`Chicago Board of Trade. I'm not sure.
` Q Any other exchanges that TD-1 is used to
`trade on by name?
` A It's also used in Canada, I believe it's used
`in London. I don't know.
` Q Do you trade on the LIFFE exchange?
` A Me?
` Q No, does TD Securities --
` A I don't know.
` Q What about the Eurex or Euronet?
` A I don't know.
` Q Does this proprietary trading screen, TD-1,
`does that display the price of a commodity?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And -- and how does it --
` A What do you mean by a commodity? Just
`because it has a different meaning to different
`people.
` Q Okay. So when you're trading futures, does
`it display the price of the future that you're trying
`to trade?
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` A Correct.
` Q And how does it display the prices?
` A A Level 2 type screen.
` Q And what do you mean by that?
` A Where it's always centered on the last traded
`price.
` Q Where is the best bid and best ask displayed
`on TD-1?
` A At the top of the screen. And also we have
`order tickets.
` Q When you say that the best bid and the best
`ask is displayed at the top of the screen -- strike
`the question.
` You have seen Figure 2 in the TT patents --
` A Yeah.
` Q -- at issue in this case?
` A Yes.
` Q Is that the type of screen that you use?
` A Yes.
` Q For TD-1?
` A Correct.
` Q And you say you also use order tickets?
` A Yes.
` Q What do you mean by order tickets?
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` A Order ticket is a screen where you have to
`fill out all maybe of the parameters for -- that are
`required for a trade. For example, in our case, you
`don't have to input your account numbers because it
`knows, according to your login, what accounts you
`have access to, but you would have to enter if it's a
`buy or sell, what type of order it is, the duration
`of the order, your destination you want to go to.
`Let's see. That's about it. And obviously the
`commodity, you have to enter the commodity.
` Q Why does TD Securities use order tickets to
`place an order?
` A I don't know.
` Q Have you ever considered automating the
`process for an order ticket in which all the
`information is prefilled for you?
` A Some of it is automated.
` Q Okay. And what information is prefilled on
`the order ticket on TD-1?
` A Account.
` Q Any others?
` A It will remember what your last -- what
`you've traded in the last X amount of days, so you'll
`have a drop down box of commodities, so to speak.
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`Well, stocks mostly.
` Q Have you ever considered prefilling in all
`the parameters of the order ticket?
` A No.
` Q Why not?
` A Well, when I -- I initially designed that
`system when it was -- when it was Stafford Trading,
`it wasn't a requirement.
` Q What was the requirement?
` A The requirement?
` Q Yes.
` A To be able to send orders to an exchange.
` Q And was the requirement --
` A I mean all exchanges, all different types of
`instruments, et cetera.
` Q Was the requirement to be able to -- strike
`the question.
` Was it brokers who were mostly using this
`TD-1 system?
` A There's no brokers at TD.
` Q What kind of people -- are the people who use
`TD-1, are they entering orders on behalf of others?
` A No. All for their own accounts.
` Q So these are proprietary traders at TD-1?
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` A Proprietary traders and market makers.
` Q Have you ever considered using a -- the MD
`Trader at TD-1?
` A Been aware of MD Trader and a lot of the
`products out there, but we have a big in-house
`development staff, and we choose to develop our own
`software.
` Q My question to you is have you ever
`considered using an MD Trader at TD-1?
` A Specifically MD Trader?
` Q Let's start with, yes, specifically MD
`Trader.
` A No.
` Q And why not?
` A Because we develop our own software. We
`don't really use -- for order entry or anything like
`that we do not use external vendors here in Chicago
`for sure.
` Q Have you ever considered using a MD Trader
`type screen at TD-1?
` A Okay. When you say MD Trader type screen,
`can you just elaborate just a little bit more on that
`for me?
` Q Sure.
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` Have you ever considered using a static
`vertical price ladder at T -- at TD Securities?
` A No.
` Q Why not?
` A The traders wouldn't want it.
` Q Why not?
` A Because they like to enter their own orders
`specifically.
` Q What do you mean by that?
` A Well, because of what we do, the way we
`trade, we're not just trading one or two instruments
`at a time. We're trading many different instruments.
`And the market making applications have what are
`called order hedges. So we would only trade stocks
`to hedge an option book, but those hedges, the system
`will automatically generate everything. The person
`doesn't even need to do anything.
` But for the other type of orders for the
`proprietary traders such as myself, a few other
`people, those orders need to have individual control
`because there's so many stocks. It would not be
`possible to have that type of screen up. There would
`be too many of them.
` Q So you would not recommend an MD Trader type
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`screen to TD Securities?
` A Depended what they wanted. I cannot say
`that. I would have to look at the specific
`requirement.
` Q But based on the business of -- strike the
`question.
` Based on how TD Securities operates right
`now, you would not recommend them switching over to
`an MD Trader type screen?
` A Well, not the whole of TD Securities, just my
`particular -- all I know is -- for sure is in Chicago
`what we do. For what we do, I personally wouldn't.
` Q And why not?
` A Why?
` Q Yes.
` A Because I need more control. I have too many
`instruments. It's just too many instruments. It
`wouldn't be feasible. My portfolio has nearly 500
`stocks in it.
` Q When were you first -- strike the question.
` Have you ever used MD Trader?
` A Yes.
` Q When's the first time you used MD Trader?
` A When I went, I visited Trading Technologies'
`
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`offices.
` Q And when was that?
` A Months ago. It was this year. It was
`several months ago.
` Q Does TD Securities have any kind of
`relationship with Trading Technologies?
` A Not to my knowledge.
` Q Okay. Other than being an expert for TT, do
`you have any other relationship with Trading
`Technologies?
` A Not at all.
` Q Prior to getting involved in this case, did
`you know anyone at Trading Technologies?
` A I don't believe so.
` Q Prior to getting involved --
` A I mean, I know -- the only thing I know is
`that we looked at Trading Technologies years and
`years ago when I was at Stafford when we were just
`looking at everything. Every now and then we would
`just look at what the market had. More to kick the
`tire, so to speak, than anything.
` Q And when were you at Stafford?
` A 1999, late 1999 through the acquisition by TD
`on February 28th, 2002.
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` Q And when did you look at Trading Technologies
`when you were at Stafford?
` A It was like 2000, sometime in 2000.
` Q Did they have the MD Trader at that time?
` A I can't remember. I'm not sure. I -- my
`function at Stafford was I was the CIO, so I was in
`charge of all technology. A lot of times I -- I
`would have people -- some of my staff do stuff with
`it.
` Q Did you know Leif Sigmond before you got
`involved in this case?
` A I've met Mr. Sigmond before, yes.
` Q And how did you meet Mr. Sigmond?
` A We're both members of Chicago Yacht Club.
` Q How long have you known Mr. Sigmond?
` A I met Mr. Sigmond for the first time not this
`summer but the summer last, not -- summer of 2006.
` Q And how did you meet Mr. Sigmond?
` A I have a sailboat, and Mr. Sigmond had
`purchased the same type of sailboat, and we -- we
`basically race against each other.
` Q Do you consider Mr. Sigmond a friend?
` A I consider him an acquaintance.
` Q Why just an acquaintance?
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` A I don't think we spend enough time together.
` Q When you race against him, who wins?
` A I'd say it's 50/50. Leif's been doing it
`longer than I have.
` Q Is Mr. Sigmond the one that contacted you to
`get involved in this case?
` A Initially, yes.
` Q All right. And when was that?
` A Towards the end of last year. Could have
`been when we first spoke about it, it may have been
`November, maybe have been December. I'm not sure.
` (Defendant's Exhibit No. 798 marked as
` requested.)
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q Showing you what I've marked as Defendant's
`Exhibit 798, which is the expert report submitted by
`you on June 6th, 2007, and it includes Exhibits A, B,
`and D but not C, which is just a huge claim chart.
` So is this the report that you submitted in
`this case minus that Exhibit C?
` A If you tell me it is, then I will accept your
`word. I can go through it. It's up to you.
` Q If you could turn to Page 68 of the report?
` A Okay.
`
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` Q Is that your signature?
` A Yes, it is.
` Q Before you reached your opinions in this
`case, how much time did you spend on this case?
` MR. GANNON: Objection, vague.
` THE WITNESS: Now, do you mean my opinions as
`stated in here?
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q Yes.
` A Okay. Well, it was before this date, I mean,
`a few months before this date.
` Q And I'm just trying to understand, how much
`time in terms of number of hours did you spend on
`this case before you reached your opinion that's set
`forth in Defendant's Exhibit 798?
` A I don't know. A lot.
` Q Okay. More than 50 hours?
` A Probably.
` Q More than 100 hours?
` A I'm not sure about that. 50 I'd say for
`sure.
` Q Did you type this report?
` A You mean did I physically type it?
` Q Yes.
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` A Some of it.
` Q Okay. Who else typed this report?
` A Mr. Gannon.
` Q And Mr. Gannon is one of the lawyers for
`Trading Technologies?
` A From MBHB. Yes.
` Q Did anyone else type this report?
` A Not to my knowledge, no.
` Q Do you know how much of the report you typed
`versus what Mr. Gannon typed?
` A I don't know. Maybe half of it. It depended
`how it was, you know, how we were doing it.
` Q Well, how were you doing it?
` A When I first started doing this, you know, I
`got an initial amount of documents from the
`attorneys, which I reviewed. I started requesting
`more. I decided that it was such a large volume of
`data, and there was more and more and more, that the
`only way I could efficiently do it is to do it at
`their offices.
` So I would go to the office, review
`documents, we'd discuss issues, and then I would
`either tell Mike what to type, or I would type it
`depending on, you know, what we were doing. That's
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`kind of the process we went through.
` Q And so in -- in preparing this report, what's
`reflected in here is information that you typed or
`information that you specifically told Mr. Gannon to
`type, is that correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q Okay. Now, in this report you're giving
`opinions on the -- what you believe to be the
`infringement of the TT patents by the eSpeed and Ecco
`software, is that correct?
` A Right, right.
` Q And have you read the court's summary
`judgment decision in this case?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And after reading the -- and you
`understand that the court concluded that the -- what
`you call the Iteration 2 and Iteration 3 products do
`not infringe TT's patents, is that correct?
` A I read that, yes.
` Q And just so the record is clear, the
`Iteration 2 product, we're talking about the eSpeed
`and Ecco Dual Dynamic products, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And then for Iteration 3 we're talking about
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`the eSpeed and Ecco eSpeedometer products, is that
`correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And after reading the court's decision on the
`summary judgement that those products do not
`infringe, do you still stand by the opinions in your
`report?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Is there anything that you want to change
`regarding the opinions in your report?
` A I don't think so, no.
` Q Do you agree with the court's decision that
`the eSpeed Dual Dynamic and eSpeedometer products do
`not infringe the TT patents?
` A I agree with some of what the judge said, and
`I disagree with some of what he said.
` Q Okay. Do you disagree -- strike the --
`strike the question.
` In your opinion, does a product that has
`automatic recentering meet the static limitation of
`the claims?
` MR. GANNON: Objection, vague as to automatic
`recentering.
` THE WITNESS: There will be different types --
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`there's -- there's different types of automatic
`recentering. What type of automatic recentering do
`you mean?
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q Well, is there -- in your mind is there any
`type of automatic recentering that you believe falls
`within the scope of the claim term static as used in
`the patents?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. What kind?
` A When it is in a -- on a certain interval.
` Q What do you mean by that?
` A If automatic recentering occurred, say, every
`five seconds, every ten seconds, whatever it is.
` Q Any other type of automatic recentering that
`you still, that in your opinion, falls within the
`scope of static in the claims?
` A Off the top of my head, no. Maybe.
` Q Would a price axis that recenters when the
`inside market goes off the screen, you consider that
`to be static as that term is used in the patents?
` MR. GANNON: Just to clarify, too, Ray, you're
`talking about the -- following the court's latest
`opinion, the latest summary judgment opinion, or in
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`any context?
` MR. PERKINS: I'm just asking what his opinion
`is. And let me rephrase the question.
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q Is it your opinion that a price axis that has
`the inside market -- that recenters when the inside
`market goes off the screen falls within the scope of
`static as that's used in the patent?
` MR. GANNON: Same -- same objection. Again, the
`question is unclear with respect to whether you're
`asking about Mr. Thomas's opinion presummary judgment
`ruling or whether you're asking him in the context of
`the court's opinion, latest opinion.
` MR. PERKINS: Let's start presummary judgment
`ruling.
` THE WITNESS: Okay. Repeat the question. Sorry.
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q Sure.
` Is it your opinion that the product that the
`inside market goes off the screen, it recenters --
` A Right.
` Q -- is -- falls within the static limitation
`of the claims prior to the court issuing its summary
`judgment decision?
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` A No.
` Q Why not?
` A Because it's not predictable.
` Q What do you mean? Can you explain where the
`predicability would fall into that?
` A Because you don't know when it might happen.
` Q Okay. And because of that, you do not think
`that such a price axis is static?
` A It may not be.
` Q You say that it may not be. Under what
`situation do you believe that such a price axis would
`be static in that context?
` A If you had a very narrow range market with a
`large screen.
` Q What do you mean?
` A It may never go off the screen during the
`trading day.
` Q Okay. So if the inside market never goes off
`the screen, you would consider that to be static,
`correct?
` A If it never goes off?
` Q Any other situations where you would consider
`a product where the inside market does, in fact,
`recenter when it goes off the screen, that it will
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`still be considered static?
` A Not that I can think of right now.
` Q If a price axis displayed seven prices on the
`screen, and it recenters after -- strike the
`question.
` If the price axis display has seven prices
`on the screen, and it recenters if the inside market
`goes off the screen, do you consider that to be a
`static price axis?
` MR. GANNON: Objection, vague as to literal
`infringement or doctrine of equivalents. Which one
`are you referring to?
` MR. PERKINS: You can answer the question.
` THE WITNESS: That's the one thing I did disagree
`with the judge on is that it's equivalent.
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q Okay. Well, putting aside what you disagree
`with the judge on, I'm asking you if I -- if a price
`axis has seven prices on the screen, and the inside
`market goes off the screen causing it to recenter, do
`you consider that to be a static price axis?
` A Literally or equivalent?
` Q Let's start literally.
` A Not literally.
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` Q And why not?
` A Because using the judge's construction, it
`would have moved off the screen.
` Q How about equivalently?
` A Well, equivalently, it would be functionally
`the same to the trader.
` Q So is it your opinion that a price axis that
`displays seven prices on the screen and it
`automatically recenters once it exceeds those, you
`know, the price range, that that is equivalent to a
`static price axis as has been construed by the court?
` A Can you repeat that, sorry?
` MR. PERKINS: Sure. Can you read it back,
`please.
` (Whereupon the following question read:
` "Q So is it your opinion that a price
` axis that displays seven prices on
` the screen and it automatically
` recenters once it exceeds those, you
` know, the price range, that that is
` equivalent to a static price axis as
` has been construed by the court?")
` MR. GANNON: Objection, incomplete hypothetical.
` THE WITNESS: I believe so, but I would have to
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`look at it specifically.
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q But why -- but why do you believe so?
` A Because I believe that that would be
`equivalent to a static price display.
` Q And why is that?
` A Because looking at the tests for equivalence,
`in my opinion, it would be the same.
` Q And explain to me why?
` A Well, they're interchangeable.
` Q And why do you believe they're
`interchangeable?
` A They're doing the same thing for the trader.
`The trader has the same -- can do the same process or
`functions that he could do with the auto recentering
`or not.
` Q When you say that the trader can do the same
`thing, what -- what specifically are you referring
`to?
` A The trader can enter an order without -- at
`the price desired. So if you looked at the tests,
`the function, way, result, same function, same way,
`and the same result.
` Q So if -- if someone designed an electronic
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`trading system that had a vertical price axis where
`the inside market would recenter, if it -- strike the
`question.
` So someone designing an electronic trading
`system in which the inside market -- strike the
`question.
` Someone designing an electronic trading
`system had a vertical price axis that recentered when
`the inside market exceeded, you know, the seven
`prices. Okay. The seven price range, you would say
`that that type of screen is interchangeable with the
`static price axis?
` MR. GANNON: Objection, incomplete hypothetical.
` THE WITNESS: Hold on. This just fell off. Hold
`on a second.
` I believe they're the same, yes.
`BY MR. PERKINS:
` Q And why do you believe they are the same?
` A Because the trader gets the benefit -- even
`where the order is en