UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`---------------------------x
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`APPLE INC., : CBM2014-00102
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` Petitioner, : CBM2014-00106
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` vs. : CBM2014-00108
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`SMARTFLASH LLC, : CBM2014-00112
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` Patent Owner. :
`
`---------------------------x
`
` Deposition of JONATHAN KATZ, Ph.D.
`
` Volume 1
`
` McLean, Virginia
`
` Wednesday, April 8, 2015
`
` 9:05 a.m.
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`Pages: 1 - 96
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`Reported by: Cappy Hallock, RPR, CRR, CLR
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC
`866 4 Team GE
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`Page 00001
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`Apple Exhibit 1033
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`
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
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`---------------------------x
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`APPLE INC., : CBM2014-00102
`
` Petitioner, : CBM2014-00106
`
` vs. : CBM2014-00108
`
`SMARTFLASH LLC, : CBM2014-00112
`
` Patent Owner. :
`
`---------------------------x
`
` Deposition of JONATHAN KATZ, Ph.D.
`
` Volume 1
`
` McLean, Virginia
`
` Wednesday, April 8, 2015
`
` 9:05 a.m.
`
`Pages: 1 - 96
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`Reported by: Cappy Hallock, RPR, CRR, CLR
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC
`866 4 Team GE
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`Page 00001
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`Apple Exhibit 1033
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`Page 2
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` Deposition of JONATHAN KATZ, Ph.D., held
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`at the offices of:
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` Davidson Berquist Jackson & Gowdey
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` 8300 Greensboro Drive, 5th Floor
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` McLean, Virginia 22102
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` Pursuant to notice, before Cappy
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`Hallock, Registered Professional Reporter,
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`Certified Realtime Reporter, Certified Livenote
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`Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the
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`District of Columbia.
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`Page 00002
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`
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`Page 3
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` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
`
` JAMES R. BATCHELDER, ESQUIRE
`
` Ropes & Gray LLP
`
` 1900 University Avenue, 6th Floor
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` East Palo Alto, California 94303-2284
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` 650-617-4000 (P) 650-617-4090 (F)
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` james.batchelder@ropesgray.com
`
` - and -
`
` BRIAN D. MATTY, ESQUIRE
`
` Ropes & Gray LLP
`
` 1211 Avenue of the Americas
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` New York, New York 10036-8704
`
` 212-596-9000 (P) 212-596-9090 (F)
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`Page 00003
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`APPEARANCES: (Continued)
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`Page 4
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` ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
`
` MICHAEL R. CASEY, ESQUIRE
`
` Davidson Berquist Jackson & Gowdey LLP
`
` 8300 Greensboro Drive, 5th Floor
`
` McLean, Virginia 22102
`
` 703-894-6406 (P) 703-894-6430 (F)
`
` mcasey@dbjg.com
`
` - and -
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` BRADLEY W. CALDWELL, ESQUIRE
`
` Caldwell Cassady & Curry
`
` 2101 Cedar Springs Road, Suite 1000
`
` Dallas, Texas 75201
`
` 214-888-4848 (P) 214-888-4849 (F)
`
` bcaldwell@caldwellcc.com
`
`Reported by:
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` Cappy Hallock, RPR, CRR, CLR
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC
`866 4 Team GE
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`Page 00004
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` C O N T E N T S
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`Page 5
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`EXAMINATION OF KATZ PAGE
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` By Mr. Batchelder 8
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` -o0o-
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` E X H I B I T S
`
` (Attached to transcript)
`
`KATZ PAGE
`
`Exhibit 1 U.S. Patent No. 8,118,221 46
`
`Exhibit 2 Katz Declaration, Case 46
`
` CBM2014-00102
`
`Exhibit 3 2-21-12 Petition for Covered 55
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` Business Method Patent Review
`
` of U.S. Patent No. 8,118,221
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` Docket -801
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`Exhibit 4 2-21-12 Petition for Covered 55
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` Business Method Patent Review
`
` of U.S. Patent No. 8,118,221
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` Docket -802
`
`///
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`Page 00005
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`EXHIBITS: (Continued)
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`Page 6
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`KATZ PAGE
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`Exhibit 5 U.S. Patent No. 5,530,235 59
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`Exhibit 6 U.S. Patent No. 5,629,980 79
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`Exhibit 7 U.S. Patent No. 5,915,019 90
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` -o0o-
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` - - - - - -
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` THE VIDEO OPERATOR: Stand by.
`
` On the record with Disc Number 1 of the
`
`video deposition of Jonathan Katz taken by the
`
`Petitioner in the matter of Apple Incorporated
`
`versus Smartflash LLC, being heard at the U.S.
`
`Patent and Trademark Office before the Patent
`
`Trial and Appeal Board, Case Number CBM2014-00112.
`
` This deposition is being held at the
`
`offices of Davidson Berquist Jackson & Gowdey at
`
`8300 Greensboro Drive in McLean, Virginia on April
`
`8, 2015 at approximately 9:06 a.m.
`
` My name is TJ O'Toole. I'm the Certified
`
`Legal Video Specialist. The court reporter is
`
`Cappy Hallock. We are both here representing
`
`GregoryEdwards LLC.
`
` Will counsel please introduce themselves
`
`and indicate which parties they represent.
`
` MR. BATCHELDER: My name is James
`
`Batchelder from Ropes & Gray on behalf of
`
`Petitioner, Apple, Inc., and with me is my
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC
`866 4 Team GE
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`Page 00007
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`
`
`colleague Brian Matty.
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` MR. CASEY: I'm Michael Casey of Davidson
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`Berquist Jackson & Gowdey representing the Patent
`
`Page 8
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`Owner, Smartflash LLC.
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` MR. CALDWELL: Brad Caldwell,
`
`representing Smartflash.
`
`WHEREUPON,
`
` JONATHAN KATZ, Ph.D.
`
` A Witness called for examination, having
`
`been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
`
`as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. BATCHELDER:
`
` Q. Would you state your full name for the
`
`record, please?
`
` A. Jonathan Katz.
`
` MR. CASEY: Jim, can I make a quick
`
`point? The videographer indicated this is for
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`Case CBM2014-00112. My understanding is this will
`
`be used for all of CBM, all of the currently
`
`pending CB -- Apple CBMs, CBM2014-00102, also
`
`-00106, -00108, in addition to -00112. Are we on
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`the same page?
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` MR. BATCHELDER: I don't have the numbers
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`memorized but yes, this deposition applies to the,
`
`to the currently initiated proceedings.
`
`BY MR. BATCHELDER:
`
` Q. Would you state your home address for the
`
`record please, sir?
`
` A. 12427 Kemp Mill Road, Silver Spring,
`
`Maryland, 20902.
`
` Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. How many times?
`
` A. Approximately three or four.
`
` Q. And have you ever testified outside of
`
`the context of a deposition?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Ever testified at trial?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Never at an ITC proceeding?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. If I say or ask you anything today that
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`confuses you in any way, will you please let me
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC
`866 4 Team GE
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`Page 00009
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`Page 10
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`know that?
`
` A. I will.
`
` Q. Thank you. Am I correct in understanding
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`you have a scheduling conflict this afternoon?
`
` A. Yes. I do.
`
` Q. What is that conflict?
`
` A. I have a prior meeting that was arranged
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`at the University of Maryland where I work.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` And what time do you need these
`
`deposition proceedings today to end to meet that
`
`conflict?
`
` A. 1:30.
`
` Q. All right.
`
` In this deposition I'm going to refer to
`
`the prior art time period. I just want to be
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`clear at the outset by that phrase I mean the time
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`period just before the priority date of patents in
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`suit. Do you understand?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And when I refer to what a person of
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`ordinary skill in the art would have understood
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`I'm referencing what would have been understood in
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`that prior art time frame. Do you understand?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What did you do to prepare for today's
`
`deposition?
`
` A. I reviewed my declarations, I reviewed
`
`the references that I used in preparing my
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`declarations, and I met with Michael Casey earlier
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`in the week.
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` Q. Other than those three things, did you do
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`anything else to prepare for this deposition?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. How much time did you spend preparing for
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`this deposition?
`
` A. I would say approximately ten hours,
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`perhaps.
`
` Q. Prior to signing your declarations in
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`these proceedings, how much time had you spent in
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`these proceedings?
`
` A. I don't recall exactly off the top of my
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`head.
`
` Q. Can you give me your best estimate,
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`Page 12
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`please?
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` A. Perhaps 20 hours.
`
` Q. Have you ever communicated with either of
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`the named inventors on the challenged patents?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Have you ever communicated with Dr. Mark
`
`Jones?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Other than reading the cited references
`
`in the patents in suit, did you do any reading of
`
`any other documents in connection with these
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`proceedings?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. I want to read to you the Guideline
`
`Number 6 from the Patent Trial Practice Guide. It
`
`reads as follows. "Once the cross examination of
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`a witness has commenced and until cross
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`examination of the witness has concluded, counsel
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`offering the witness on direct examination shall
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`not; A, consult or confer with the witness
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`regarding the substance of the witness' testimony
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`already given or anticipated to be given except
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`Page 13
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`for the purpose of conferring on whether to assert
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`a privilege against testifying or on how to comply
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`with the Board order; or B, suggest to the witness
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`the manner in which any question should be
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`answered."
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` Were you made aware before this
`
`deposition of that trial practice guide?
`
` A. Yes, I was.
`
` Q. And do you intend to comply with it
`
`today?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. All right, I just want to give everyone a
`
`heads-up that after every break I will ask whether
`
`you have had any substantive discussions with
`
`counsel about the deposition.
`
` In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood that digital content could be bought
`
`and sold over a network?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art have
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`understood that digital content could be bought
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`Page 14
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`and sold over the internet?
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` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. As you sit here, sir, you are not aware
`
`of digital content being bought and sold over a
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`network in the prior art?
`
` A. Which prior art are you referring to?
`
` Q. Any prior art.
`
` A. I'm not sure I can identify a particular
`
`prior art reference, but if -- I assume it would
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`have been known.
`
` Q. I want to make sure I understand your
`
`last answer. Did you say I'm not sure I can
`
`identify a particular prior art reference but I
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`assume many of them have been known?
`
` A. I assume it may have been known.
`
` Q. But as you sit here you're not sure one
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`way or the other?
`
` A. Well, like I said, I can't point off the
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`top of my head toward a particular reference.
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` Q. I'm not asking whether you can point to a
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`reference. I'm asking whether in the art digital
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`content was bought and sold over a network, in the
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`Page 15
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`prior art.
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` A. I believe so.
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` Q. In the prior art was digital content
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`bought and sold over the Internet?
`
` A. I believe so.
`
` Q. Are you uncertain?
`
` A. Well, as I said, I can't point to a
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`particular reference off the top of my head.
`
` Q. Again, I'm not asking you that. The
`
`question is, are you uncertain as to whether in
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`the prior art digital content was bought and sold
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`over the Internet.
`
` A. I believe it was.
`
` Q. Again, you have used the phrase "I
`
`believe." My question is are you uncertain?
`
` A. I think it was -- I believe it was known.
`
`I'm not sure how else to answer.
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` THE COURT REPORTER: How it was
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`answered -- that's okay.
`
` Q. You said, "I believe it was known," but
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`are you certain that it was or are you uncertain?
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` A. Can you rephrase the question?
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` Q. Are you certain one way or the other
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`whether in the prior art time period digital
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`content was bought and sold over the Internet?
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` A. I'm uncertain.
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` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what an electronic payment was?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What would that understanding have been?
`
` A. I think the term electronic payment could
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`be interpreted broadly, could be interpreted to
`
`mean any mechanism for carrying out a payment
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`electronically.
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` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have been
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`aware of different ways to process electronic
`
`payments?
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` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. Are you implying that there is more than
`
`one way?
`
` Q. I'm asking you whether a person of
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`Page 17
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`ordinary skill in the art would have been aware of
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`different ways to process electronic payments
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`during the prior art time period.
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` A. I think they would have been familiar
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`with ways of processing electronic payments, yes.
`
` Q. Different ways?
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` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. Sorry.
`
` Yes.
`
` Q. Can you try to keep your voice up just a
`
`little bit? Thank you.
`
` What different ways?
`
` A. Well, without being exhaustive, one way
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`would have been processing credit card payments.
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` Q. Others?
`
` A. Another way might have been using some
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`form of electronic cash.
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` Q. Others?
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` A. I can't think of any others off the top
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`of my head.
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` Q. Wire transfers?
`
` A. Okay, yes. I would amend that.
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` Q. Debit card process?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. I'm not sure, to be honest.
`
` Q. Are you unsure whether debit card
`
`processing existed in the prior art?
`
` A. That's right. I'm unsure whether it
`
`existed prior to 1999.
`
` Q. The priority date here was what date,
`
`sir?
`
` A. Can I have copies of my declarations?
`
` Q. Do you not know it off the top of your
`
`head?
`
` A. That's right. Can I have copies of my
`
`declarations?
`
` Q. I will represent to you it was October of
`
`'99. So the record is clear, would one of
`
`ordinary skill in the art in the prior art time
`
`period prior the October of '99 have known about
`
`debit card processing?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. Would one of ordinary skill in the prior
`
`art time period have known about automated
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`clearing house transfers?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what a merchant server was?
`
` A. I think so, yes.
`
` Q. And what would that understanding have
`
`been?
`
` A. That would have been a computer server
`
`that was selling items, acting as a merchant.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what a credit server was?
`
` A. Yes, I think so.
`
` Q. What would that understanding have been?
`
` A. That would have been a computer server
`
`that could be used for verifying credit or for
`
`validating electronic payment information.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what verifying credit was?
`
` A. Yes.
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`person of ordinary skill in the art have
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`understood what validating electronic payment
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`Page 20
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`information was?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What would that understanding have been?
`
` A. That would involve verifying the
`
`correctness of electronic payment information.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what a billing clearing house was?
`
` A. Yes, I think so.
`
` Q. What would that understanding have been?
`
` A. That would have been a computer system
`
`that could be used for processing electronic
`
`payments.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have known
`
`what a credit account was?
`
` A. Yes, I think so.
`
` Q. What would that understanding have been?
`
` A. A personal credit card account.
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` Q. And what would a person of ordinary skill
`
`in the art have understood a personal credit card
`
`account to be?
`
` A. Well, customers have credit cards, and
`
`those credit cards -- the accounts associated with
`
`those credit cards maintain certain balances, and
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`those are the accounts that we are referring to.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have known
`
`what activating a credit account was?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have known how
`
`to carry out an electronic payment to sell digital
`
`content?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what authorizing payment was in the
`
`context of an electronic sale of digital content?
`
` A. Sorry, can you repeat the question?
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art have
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`understood what authorizing payment was in the
`
`context of an electronic sale of digital content?
`
` A. I think they would have understood that
`
`authorizing payment meant verifying the validity
`
`of payment information.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood how to effectuate an electronic sale of
`
`digital content?
`
` A. I didn't catch the word, actually,
`
`effectuate?
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood how to effectuate an electronic sale of
`
`digital content?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. What makes you uncertain about that?
`
` A. I actually don't know the word
`
`effectuate. Maybe I'm mishearing you.
`
` Q. You're not familiar with the word
`
`effectuate is that what you said?
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` A. Right.
`
` Q. In that prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have known how
`
`to implement an electronic sale of digital
`
`content?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. And what makes you unsure about that?
`
` A. Well, again, I can't think of any
`
`particular prior art doing something like that.
`
` Q. Understanding that I'm not asking you to
`
`identify any particular reference, is it the case
`
`that you just don't know one way or the other
`
`whether there were electronic sales of digital
`
`content in the prior art?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what validating payment was in the
`
`context of an electronic sale of digital content?
`
` A. I think you've already asked me that.
`
` Q. I'm not sure that I did, so would you
`
`please just answer?
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` A. Can you repeat the question?
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what validating payment was in the
`
`context of an electronic sale of digital content?
`
` A. They would have understood validating
`
`payment, yes.
`
` Q. And what would they have understood that
`
`to mean?
`
` A. Validating information associated with a
`
`payment.
`
` Q. Does validating payment -- strike that,
`
`please.
`
` In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood that validating payment happens before
`
`payment, after payment or both?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. I think it's -- it could be part of the
`
`process of making the payment itself.
`
` Q. Let me break that down into a time period
`
`so we have a clear record.
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` In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood that validating payment can take place
`
`before payment is made?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. It could happen that way, yes.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood that validating payment can take place
`
`after payment was made?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. It could happen that way also.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art understood
`
`that validating payment can take place in realtime
`
`while payment is being made?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Can you give me an example of how
`
`validating payment would have been understood by a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art in the prior
`
`art time period to occur in connection with
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`payment that has occurred in the past?
`
` A. I'm sorry, perhaps you could rephrase the
`
`question?
`
` Q. Would you give me an example of how
`
`validating payment could have been understood in
`
`the prior art time period by a person of ordinary
`
`skill in the art to apply to a situation where the
`
`payment has already occurred and the payment is
`
`then validated.
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. Without being exhaustive, again, one
`
`could make a payment with a credit card, using a
`
`credit card number, and the validity of that
`
`credit card number could be verified before,
`
`during or after the payment.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have had in
`
`mind a reason for validating payment after payment
`
`was made?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. Can you think of a reason as you sit
`
`here?
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` A. It might be useful in detecting fraud to
`
`be able to verify data associated with payments
`
`previously made.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood that payment validation could be made a
`
`condition of providing content that was
`
`electronically sold?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what a pointer was in the context of
`
`computer network?
`
` A. I think the term pointer had several
`
`meanings but the term was in use.
`
` Q. The term was in use in the prior art time
`
`period?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What are those several meanings?
`
` A. Well, without being exhaustive, a pointer
`
`could be used to refer to an address in memory, it
`
`could be used to refer to the address of a remote
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`Page 28
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`server, it could be used perhaps other ways as
`
`well. I don't have other examples off the top of
`
`my head.
`
` Q. The first meaning that you mentioned for
`
`a pointer was something that points to an address
`
`in memory, correct?
`
` A. That's right.
`
` Q. Would a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art in the prior art time period have understood
`
`that a pointer on a given computer in a network
`
`could point to an address in memory either on that
`
`computer or on some other computer in the network?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. I think it would depend on the context.
`
`The most natural interpretation in the context of
`
`data structures would be to point to memory within
`
`the -- within the same computer, but in principle
`
`it would be possible to have a pointer that would
`
`point to some other memory location as well.
`
` Q. And by some other memory location you
`
`mean a memory location on another device on the
`
`same network?
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` A. In the context of data structures like I
`
`was talking about, I think it would typically be a
`
`memory device that was physically connected to the
`
`same computer. I don't know if, if without
`
`further explanation it would refer to a server
`
`across a remote network.
`
` Q. I want to make sure I understand your
`
`testimony. Is it your understanding that a
`
`pointer on a given computer, let's call it
`
`computer X that is on a network, that that pointer
`
`can point to an address in memory when that memory
`
`is located on another computer also on that
`
`network?
`
` A. Again, I think without further
`
`qualification if I just saw the word pointer it
`
`would most naturally refer to memory on that
`
`computer X.
`
` Q. I didn't ask you whether it would most
`
`naturally refer to that. I asked you whether a
`
`pointer could refer to a memory address on another
`
`device located on the same network as the device
`
`hosting the pointer.
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` A. Again, if I just saw the word pointer
`
`with no further qualification then I would say no.
`
` Q. Are you aware of an instance in which a
`
`pointer on a given computer points to an address
`
`in memory where that memory is located on another
`
`computer on the same network?
`
` A. Can you define the same network? Do you
`
`mean local area network? Are you referring to any
`
`two computers that can communicate?
`
` Q. Any network.
`
` A. Can I see copies of my declarations?
`
` Q. For now I would like you to answer that
`
`question without looking at your declarations.
`
` A. Okay, then I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what a debit transaction was in
`
`connection with the sale of electronic content?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what a credit transaction was in
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`connection with the electronic sale of content?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period in
`
`connection with the electronic sale of content,
`
`would a person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood the differences between debit and
`
`credit transactions?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood the difference between credit and
`
`debit?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period was the
`
`concept of debit mentioned in the art in the field
`
`of the challenged patents?
`
` A. I don't remember offhand.
`
` Q. Do you understand today what a debit
`
`system is?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you understand today what a debit
`
`system is in connection with the electronic sale
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`of content?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, relevance.
`
` A. I'm not sure if I'm aware of an example
`
`of that.
`
` Q. You're not aware today of debit cards
`
`being used to pay for goods electronically?
`
` A. I'm aware of debit cards being used for
`
`payment of physical goods. I'm not aware of them
`
`being used for payment of electronic goods.
`
` Q. Are you aware of debit cards or debit
`
`accounts ever being used for the payment of
`
`electronic goods?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, form.
`
` A. Not offhand, no.
`
` Q. And are you aware as you sit here of any
`
`disclosure of the idea of debit cards or debit
`
`accounts being used for the payment of electronic
`
`goods?
`
` MR. CASEY: Objection, relevance.
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period in
`
`connection with the sale of electronic content
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`would a person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood how to implement a payment collection
`
`system that was a credit system?
`
` A. Yes, I think so.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period in
`
`connection with the sale of electronic content
`
`would a person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood how to implement a payment collection
`
`system that was a debit system?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period in
`
`connection with the electronic sale of content
`
`would a person of ordinary skill in the art have
`
`understood what a prepayment was?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. Are you familiar with any disclosure of
`
`prepayment in connection with the prior art in the
`
`field of the challenged patents?
`
` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period would a
`
`person of ordinary -- ordinary skill in the art
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`have understood what an electronic wallet was?
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC
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` A. I'm not sure.
`
` Q. In the prior art time period in
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`connection with the electronic sale of content
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`would a person of ordinary skill in the art have
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`understood what use rules were?
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` MR. CASEY: Objection, relevance. Beyond
`
`the scope of what he is here to testify for.
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` A. Can you repeat the question?
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` Q. In the prior art time period in
`
`connection with electronic sale of content would,
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`would a person of ordinary skill in the art have
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`understood what use rules were?
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` MR. CASEY: The witness has not been --
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`has not been asked to testify on things that are
`
`not part of his declaration.
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` MR. BATCHELDER: The objection is noted.
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` Q. Can you answer the question, please?
`
` A. I'm sorry, can you repeat it again?
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` Q. For the third time, in the prior art time
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`period in connection with electronic sale of
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`content would a person of ordinary skill in the
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`art have understood what use rules were?
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC
`866 4 Team GE
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` MR. CASEY: Again, I'm going to have to
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`tell you that this is beyond the scope of what he
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`has provided a declaration on. We have had this
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`discussion with Mr. Wechselberger. If you're
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`asking him to testify about things that are beyond
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`the scope of his declaration, that's outside the
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`rules of the PTAB procedures. If we need to have
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`a conference call I would be happy to do that.
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` MR. BATCHELDER: Are you instructing him
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`not to answer, because I can tell you there are
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`conditions on
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