Page 1
`
` IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
` NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
` EASTERN DIVISION
`
`
`
` TRADING TECHNOLOGIES )
` INTERNATIONAL, INC., )
` )
` )
` Plaintiff, )
` )
` vs. ) No. 05-cv-4811
` )
` CQG, INC. and CQGT, LLC, )
` )
` )
` Defendants. )
`
`
`
`
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION
`
` STEVEN VAN DUSEN
`
` January 20, 2015
`
` Chicago, Illinois
`
`
`
`Reported by:
`
`April M. Metzler
`
`Job no: 13170
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`TRADING TECH EXHIBIT 2067
`CQG & CQGT v. Trading Technologies
`CBM2015-00057
`
`Page 1 of 6
`
`

`
`Page 106
`
`Page 108
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
` market. I believe that this -- this product is worth X,
` so I'm going to bid below X and I'm going to offer above
` X.
` Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that the TT
` patents are not trying to stop anybody from performing
` those strategies?
` MR. VOLLER: Form.
` BY MR. GANNON:
` Q. Is that a fair statement?
` MR. VOLLER: Form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. Is it -- Is it fair to say that the T- -- TT
` patents are not attempting to prevent anyone from
` performing those strategies? Aga- -- I'm really -- I'm
` not even sure what you mean. I'm not even sure how to
` answer that.
` Q. Well, you mentioned that the technology in the
` patents --
` A. Well, could I -- I mean --
` Q. Yeah.
` A. It seems so obvious, no, it doesn't seem like
` that, but I guess I want to clarify what you mean.
` I'm just wondering if there's something I'm
` missing in the question.
`
`Page 107
`
` Q. Yeah. No, I understand. I'm just trying to
` figure out ...
` So do you understand that a patent gives
` somebody the right to exclude others from doing what the
` patent invention -- what's claimed in the patent? Do
` you have a general understanding of that?
` MR. VOLLER: Form and --
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. That's my --
` MR. VOLLER: -- scope.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. That's my general understanding, yes.
` Q. Right.
` That you put information in a patent, and if
` the patent gets issued, the inventor then can go out and
` stop people from either making, using, or selling the
` ideas that are in the patents?
` MR. VOLLER: Form and scope.
` BY MR. GANNON:
` Q. Is that a fair statement?
` A. Based on my -- my limited understanding of the
` field, yes.
` Q. Yeah.
` So -- So getting back to what we were talking
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
` about with the strategies --
` A. Mm-hmm.
` Q. -- these general strategies --
` A. Right.
` Q. -- that you were talking about --
` A. Mm-hmm.
` Q. -- is it fair to say that the -- And you've
` reviewed the patents, right?
` A. (Nodding.)
` MR. VOLLER: Form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. I looked at them, yeah.
` Q. Yeah. And you've talked about how they -- the
` patents deal with a static price column, a dynamic
` display of depth of bids and asks of each price and
` single-click order entry?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is it fair to say that the -- that the TT
` patents are not trying to stop or preclude anybody from
` doing these strategies of -- of which you've provided --
` A. The two -- The two that I mentioned?
` Q. Yeah.
` MR. VOLLER: Form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
`
`Page 109
`
` A. I think that is a fair statement.
` Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that the TT patents
` do not attempt to prevent others from performing all
` forms of electronic trading?
` MR. VOLLER: Form, scope.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. I want to make sure I get this right. Could
` you please repeat that?
` Q. Sure.
` Is it fair to say that the TT patents do not
` attempt to prevent others from performing all different
` types of electronic trading?
` MR. VOLLER: Form, scope.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. My -- My response to that would be -- And I'm
` sorry I'm taking so long. It just seems obvious, so I'm
` just wondering if I'm missing something -- Yes,
` because -- When were the patients issued? I think,
` '04 -- '03/'04?
` Q. Yeah. And I have them here if you would like
` to look at them.
` A. That's okay. That's okay. And algorithmic
` trading continued to evolve and grow over that period,
` so obviously those patents did not inhibit that.
`
`28 (Pages 106 to 109)
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Page 2 of 6
`
`

`
`Page 110
`
`Page 112
`
` Q. Yeah. That's what I was getting at, yeah. I
` appreciate that.
` Is it fair to say that the technology
` described in the patents is directed to a specific type
` of graphical user interface for order entry?
` MR. VOLLER: Form, scope.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. Based on my understanding, yes, point and
` click, static display of prices, dynamic indicators
` meaning the size has changed, single-click order entry,
` yes.
` Q. Right. So the -- Right.
` And so the -- the TT patents are directed to
` that specific type of arrangement of elements on a
` graphical user interface, is that a fair statement?
` MR. VOLLER: Form, scope.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. That's my understanding, correct.
` Q. Okay. Is it fair to -- in your view, to
` characterize the -- the specific type of graphical user
` interface in the TT patents as a -- as a trading tool?
` MR. VOLLER: Form, scope.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. Is it fair to describe the interface
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
` future or the ZN, or the S&P 500 future, or -- or any
` one of the -- any one of the first -- you know, first
` three or four years of Euro dollars would be highly
` liquid.
` An illiquid product would be -- Let's talk
` about real estate. You know, that's not always very
` liquid. I cited that in my report. I even traded
` lumber. I play hockey with a guy that's down there in
` that pit and I understand that product can get illiquid
` too.
` Q. Can you give an example of objects that you
` trade with a -- with a GUI for an electronic trading
` that's in an illiquid product?
` You know, I don't know if that question made
` sense.
` A. No. No. No. Let me repeat it back and make
` sure I got it correctly.
` Can I give an example of a product that's
` illiquid where you can use a GUI to trade in?
` Q. Yeah, that's -- that's right. That's what I
` was asking. Very good.
` A. I'll give -- I'll give you an example.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Products can be liquid and then illiquid
`
`Page 111
`
`Page 113
`
`1
`
` during the course of the day.
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
` MR. VOLLER: Form, scope.
` THE WITNESS: Sorry.
` BY THE WITNESS:
`
`22
`23
`24
`
` depict- -- depicted in the patents as a trading tool?
` Q. Yes.
` A. I would say that's -- that's a fair statement,
` yes.
` Q. And -- And why is that? Just to get your
` understanding, why do you -- why do you think that?
` A. Well, there's many tools that you would use in
` trading. That's one of them that allows to you enter
` orders into the marketplace, allows you to, you know,
` lift an offer, allows you to place a bid.
` Q. Do you know whether the patents -- the TT
` patents can be used with liquid products?
` MR. VOLLER: Form, scope.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. Could you -- Could you clarify what you mean
` there? What do you mean by liquid products?
` Q. Yeah. That's -- That's a great question back
` to me. I should ask you: Do you have an understanding
` of what a liquid product is in trading versus an
` illiquid product?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So what's -- Let's go with your
` understanding.
` A. Okay. Liquid product would be the ten-year
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`29 (Pages 110 to 113)
`
`Page 3 of 6
`
`

`
`Page 214
`
`Page 216
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`
` A. Yes.
` Q. And would an electronic trader today require
` the software technology embodied by the asserted patents
` in order to get out of those positions, or could they
` use some other software or technology?
` MR. GANNON: Object to the form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. They could use some other software or
` technology.
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Staying on the topic of pioneering but
` moving a little bit off of crowded art, do you consider
` TT's asserted patents to be a distinct step forward in
` the progress of the art?
` MR. GANNON: Object to form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. I -- I consider TT's patents to be
` enhancements and improvements over what was available.
` Q. And are improvements and enhancements, in your
` opinion, distinct steps forward in the progress of the
` art?
` MR. GANNON: Object to the form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. An improvement or an enhancement based on my
` interpretation would be, you know, a logical step. An
` improvement, it wouldn't be -- it wouldn't enter the
` realm of a distinct step --
` Q. Okay.
` A. -- especially when you consider that it's
` facilitated behavior that was going on before electronic
` trading.
` Q. Okay. Mr. Van Dusen, would you consider the
`
`Page 215
`
`Page 217
`
` software embodied by the asserted patents to be a -- a
` necessary tool for an electronic trader today?
` MR. GANNON: Object to the form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. Could you repeat the question?
` Q. Sure.
` Would electronic traders today consider the
` technology described in the asserted patents to be a
` necessary tool?
` MR. GANNON: Object to the form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. I don't believe so. Again, it depends on the
` trader and -- and the strategy, but it's -- it's my
` opinion that, no, they would not.
` Q. Why not?
` A. It appears to me that there's greater and
` greater emphasis on automation in the markets.
` Q. Okay. And I think you testified earlier that
` some traders that have or that use and algorithmic
` trading tools sometimes like to have graphical user
` interfaces to get out of positions, so they don't have
` to carry them overnight; is that right?
` MR. GANNON: Object to the form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
` Q. Yeah. And the same line of questions now for
` a hypothetical electronic trader five years ago in 2010,
` would -- would an electronic trader in 2010 consider the
` technology described in the asserted patents to be
` necessary --
` MR. GANNON: Object to the form.
` BY MR. VOLLER:
` Q. -- tools?
` A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?
` Q. Sure.
` You were an electronic trader in 2010,
` correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. Would an electronic trader in
` 2010 consider the technology embodied by the asserted
` patents -- and what I mean by that, is the technology
` described in the asserted patents -- would they senior
` consider that technology to be a necessary tool?
` A. In 2- --
` MR. GANNON: Object to the form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. In 2010?
` Q. Yes.
` A. No.
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`55 (Pages 214 to 217)
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`Page 4 of 6
`
`

`
`Page 218
`
`Page 220
`
`03\lONU'lvbL»)Nl-*
`
`Q. Okay. Is that for t11e same reason. that a
`trader in 2015 might also 11ot consider to be necessary‘?
`MR. GANNON: Object to the fonn.
`BYTHEWWDGES
`
`A. Yes. Again. it depends 011 your strategy.
`Q. Okay. Would you expect a pioneeiing patent to
`have a shoit shelf life‘?
`
`MR. GANNON: Object to the fon11.
`BYTHEMHHGBS
`
`A.
`
`I can't c011u11e11t.
`
`I111ea11. I -- I would think a
`
`pioneeiing patent would have a longer shelf life. but
`
`IIIIIIIIIIIIIII-----
`
`I-‘
`
`Page 221
`
`I want to go back to the Market Pane --
`
`Q. Okay.
`A. Okay.
`Q.
`-- 1i11e of questioning.
`I think there was -- I‘n1' tiying to refiesh
`your nienioiy regarding Mr. Ga1u1o11's questions regarding
`the -- the manipulation of the length of the Market
`Pane.
`
`Do you reineinber being asked questions about
`
`that?
`A. Yes
`
`Q. Okay. I think Mr. Gannon asked you about.
`whether it would be reasonable or whether a user might
`
`56 (Pages 218 to 221)
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 — Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Page50f6
`
`Page 5 of 6
`
`

`
`Page 222
`
`Page 224
`
` you, all day I was asking you questions, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any testimony that you gave that you
` believe is inaccurate?
` A. Any testimony that I gave today to you, that I
` believe is inaccurate?
` Q. Correct.
` A. No, I don't believe -- I wouldn't do that.
` Q. Okay. So there's nothing with respect to the
` answers that you gave when I was questioning you that
` you would like to go back and change; is that a fair
` statement?
` MR. VOLLER: Form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. I -- I -- I was asked a ton of questions and I
` would -- I take this very seriously. I answer every
` question honestly. So I honestly -- I can't -- And
` maybe if there was a -- a specific question -- but I
` can't think right now back to something I would want to
` go back and change.
` Q. Okay. Now, in your report, you refer to the
` asserted patents dealing with a static price column --
` A. What page are we on?
` Q. Page 12, paragraph 30.
`
`Page 225
`
` A. Okay.
` Q. (Continuing.) -- that the asserted patents
` deal with a static price column, a dynamic display of
` depth of bids and asks at each price, and single-click
` order entry.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that's what the asserted patents deal
` with, those three things, right?
` A. That's my understanding --
` MR. VOLLER: Form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. That's my understanding.
` Q. Okay. Is it your testimony, Mr. Van Dusen,
` that that technology is obsolete?
` MR. VOLLER: Form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. Difficult to say because it would depend on
` the strategy.
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
` elongate the Market Pane.
` Do you remember that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In your professional software experience,
` would it be reasonable for an electronic trader to
` shrink the Market Pane?
` MR. GANNON: Object to the form.
` BY THE WITNESS:
` A. Yes.
` Q. Why?
` A. Conserving screen space. You're trading four
` products, now you're trading eight, so you need more
` screen space.
` Q. Okay.
` A. You know, you bring up a new product,
` there's -- there's opportunity in something that you
` don't typically trade and you bring up a GUI to trade
` it.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. VOLLER: Okay. I don't have any additional
` questions.
` Thank you, Mr. Van Dusen.
` MR. GANNON: Why don't we take a break and --
` MR. VOLLER: Yeah.
`
`Page 223
`
` MR. GANNON: -- see if we're done.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It is 3:53 p m. We go off the
` record.
` (A short break was had.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It is 4:02 p m. We are back on
` the record.
` REDIRECT EXAMINATION
` BY MR. GANNON:
` Q. Okay. Mr. Van Dusen, when I finished my
` questioning of you when we came back on the record,
` Mr. Voller asked you a bunch of questions, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Between the break of when I was asking you
` questions, there was a break and then Mr. Voller started
` asking you questions. In that break, did you two
` discuss your testimony?
` A. He asked me questions and I gave him answers.
` Q. And were they questions that he asked you on
` the record?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you rehearse those questions and answers?
` A. No. He just asked me questions and I gave him
` answers.
` Q. Okay. Prior to Mr. Voller's examination of
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`57 (Pages 222 to 225)
`
`Page 6 of 6