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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`____________________
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`____________________
`APPLE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`SMARTFLASH LLC,
`Patent Owner.
`_____________________
`Case CBM2015-00015
`Patent 8,118,221
`Case CBM2015-00016
`Patent 8,033,458
`Case CBM2015-00017
`Patent 8,061,598
`Case CBM2015-00018
`Patent 7,942,317
`
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
`ANTHONY J. WECHSELBERGER
`Palo Alto, California
`MAY 28, 2015
`9:09 a.m.
`
`REPORTED BY:
`PAUL J. FREDERICKSON, CCR, CSR
`JOB NO. 39242
`
`Smartflash - Exhibit 2068
`Apple v. Smartflash
`CBM2015-00029
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`____________________
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`____________________
`APPLE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`SMARTFLASH LLC,
`Patent Owner.
`_____________________
`Case CBM2015-00015
`Patent 8,118,221
`Case CBM2015-00016
`Patent 8,033,458
`Case CBM2015-00017
`Patent 8,061,598
`Case CBM2015-00018
`Patent 7,942,317
`
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
`ANTHONY J. WECHSELBERGER
`Palo Alto, California
`MAY 28, 2015
`9:09 a.m.
`
`REPORTED BY:
`PAUL J. FREDERICKSON, CCR, CSR
`JOB NO. 39242
`
`Smartflash - Exhibit 2068
`Apple v. Smartflash
`CBM2015-00029
`
`
`
` MAY 28, 2015
`
`2
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` Videotaped deposition of ANTHONY J.
`WECHSELBERGER, the witness herein, held at 1900
`University Avenue, Palo Alto, California, on May 28,
`2015, at 9:09 a.m., pursuant to notice, before Paul
`J. Frederickson, CCR, CSR.
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
` DAVIDSON BERQUIST JACKSON & GOWDEY, LLP
` 8300 Greensboro Drive
` Suite 500
` McLean, VA 22102
` BY: MICHAEL R. CASEY, Ph.D., ESQ.
` mcasey@dbjg.com
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`FOR THE PETITIONER:
` ROPES & GRAY
` 1211 Avenue of the Americas
` New York, NY 10036-8704
` BY: CHING-LEE FUKUDA, ESQ.
` Ching-Lee.Fukuda@ropesgray.com
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`FOR THE PETITIONER:
` ROPES & GRAY
` 1900 University Avenue
` 6th Floor
` East Palo Alto, CA 94303-2284
` BY: LAUREN N. ROBINSON, ESQ.
` Lauren.Robinson@ropesgray.com
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`ALSO PRESENT:
` STEVE PATAPOFF
` Videographer
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` I N D E X
`ANTHONY J. WECHSELBERGER
` By Mr. Casey: 7
` By Ms. Fukuda: 106
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`Request for information: None
`Request for documents: None
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` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
`All exhibits premarked
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` MAY 28, 2015
` [9:09 a.m.]
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
` This begins the video deposition of Anthony
`Wechselberger in the matter of Apple Incorporated
`versus Smartflash LLC, case CBM2015-00015 and -00016
`and -00017 and -00018 in the US Patent and Trademark
`Office before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board.
` This deposition is being held at Ropes &
`Gray, 1900 University Avenue, Palo Alto, California
`on May 28, 2015 at approximately 9:09 a.m.
` My name is Steve Patapoff from the firm of
`David Feldman Worldwide. I am the legal video
`specialist. The court reporter is Paul
`Frederickson, in association with David Feldman
`Worldwide.
` Will counsel please introduce themselves?
` MS. FUKUDA: Ching-Lee Fukuda with Ropes
`& Gray representing petitioner Apple Inc., and with
`me is my colleague, Lauren Robinson.
` MR. CASEY: Michael Casey, Davidson
`Berquist Jackson & Gowdey, representing the patent
`owner, Smartflash LLC.
`ANTHONY WECHSELBERGER, being duly sworn on oath,
` was examined and
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Wechselberger.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Nice to see you again.
` A. Likewise.
` Q. So it looks like you came prepared with
`a lot of documents. So I guess I need to understand
`what documents you have in front of you so we know
`what the universe is that we're dealing with. I see
`that you have seem notes prepared as well as some
`patents.
` Would you please tell me, starting at your
`left-hand side, what the documents are in front of
`you?
` A. On the pile on left is the four patents
`that were subject of the petition.
` I have my four declarations.
` This is the prior art that was included and
`discussed in my declarations.
` Here are the decisions from the PTAB.
` And I have prepared one page which shows the
`instituted claims and the PTAB's construction for
`that plus the proffered construction for one of the
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`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`claim terms the defendants asked me to assume.
` And then for each patent I have a page that
`lists the claim, the instituted claim, and
`references to prior art examples that pertain to the
`claim preamble and each successive element to
`assist. Should you ask me to talk about prior art,
`this will help me zero in on the evidence that I
`prepared that's included in my declaration a little
`faster than going through the reports themselves.
` MS. FUKUDA: And we have copies for you
`Mr. Casey, if you would like to have those.
` A. So there is nothing new that is here
`that is not in the report.
` Q. I understand.
` MR. CASEY: Yes, I will take copies when
`you get a chance, which may be now.
` [Documents handed to counsel.]
` MR. CASEY: And we'll figure out if we
`need to make them exhibits later.
` MS. FUKUDA: I'm also handing you the
`one page instituted claims and some constructions as
`well as the four charts that Mr. Wechselberger just
`mentioned.
` MR. CASEY: Thank you.
`BY MR. CASEY:
`
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`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` Q. So, Mr. Wechselberger, I'm going to -- I
`don't know if I need to hand you copies of things
`now. Are there any notes written on any of the
`documents there?
` A. Negative.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. CASEY: So, counsel, how would you
`like to proceed? Do you want me to hand him copies
`even though he already has copies or can he just use
`the copies that's in front of him?
` MS. FUKUDA: Why don't you hand him your
`exhibits? And to the extent they overlap, he can
`set aside the documents already in front of
`Mr. Wechselberger.
` MR. CASEY: All right.
` Because certainly the declarations that you
`have in front of you do not appear to be complete
`declarations.
` Is that correct?
` MS. FUKUDA: I believe they should be.
`They're double sided.
` MR. CASEY: Oh, double sided. I see.
`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. All right. Mr. Wechselberger, I'm going
`to hand you what's a single sided version of your
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`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`petition -- sorry, your declaration in
`CBM2015-00015. It's for the 221 patent.
` Do you have it in front of you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If I could ask you, Dr. Wechselberger,
`you go through your -- your work history in your --
`in your declaration, and I think we covered that in
`the last deposition. Has anything changed in your
`work history since the last time you were deposed?
` A. No.
` MS. FUKUDA: Could we clarify the last
`deposition you mentioned? Which one is that?
` MR. CASEY: The deposition in
`CBM2014-00102, -106, -108 and -112, if you remember
`the numbers.
` A. I would add that, in terms of my work
`history, nothing has changed. That was some months
`ago. I may have one or two more new active cases
`that I'm involved in. But that wouldn't be
`historical, it would be current.
` Q. Okay.
` So, Mr. Wechselberger, I think you've been
`looking at your handy chart for the 221 patent. You
`can see that there's a single claim that has been
`instituted in the CBM2015-00015, and it's claim one?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. So I would like to talk to you about
`claim one, if I could.
` I'm going to hand you what's previously been
`marked in 200 -- sorry, strike that. In 2015-00015,
`Apple Exhibit 1201. It is a copy of the 221 patent?
`Do you have that with you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` So with reference to the 221 patent, in
`paragraph 86 of your declaration, it's in a section
`talking about invalidity of the challenged claims of
`the 221 patent. Begins around page 54.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` So in paragraph 86 you say that in your
`opinion all of the challenged claims are
`unpatentable because they are directed to ineligible
`subject matter, in particular the abstract idea of
`"paying for and controlling access to content." Do
`you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What do you mean by they are directed
`to?
` A. The challenged claims are -- well, there
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`may be legal implications to that, but I'm simply
`saying that that's what they're about.
` Q. That's what they relate to, is that a
`fair --
` A. That's -- that's what they claim,
`they're -- they're directed to. They claim
`ineligible subject matter.
` Q. So when you say they are directed to
`paying for and controlling access to content, do you
`mean that they cover all possible ways to pay for
`and control access to content?
` A. I don't mean anything more than the
`simple words that that's what they're about.
` Q. So you don't mean, when you say they are
`directed to paying for and controlling access to
`content, that they cover all possible ways to pay
`for and control access to content?
` A. No, I don't mean that.
` Q. Did you look at -- sorry, strike that.
` In the next sentence you say:
` "The challenged claims are directed to the
`general concept of 'providing access to content
`based on payment or payment rules.'" Do you see
`that?
` A. Yes.
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` MS. FUKUDA: I just want to -- I think
`you skipped a word there, Mr. Casey: "or payment
`and rules."
` MR. CASEY: Okay. So let's start again.
` Q. There is a penultimate sentence in
`paragraph 86 that says:
` "The challenged claims are directed to the
`general concept of providing access to content based
`on payment or payment and rules."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Again, you use the phrase "are directed
`to." In this sentence do you also mean that they
`relate to but that they do not cover all possible
`ways of providing access to content based on payment
`or payment and rules?
` A. Yes, I would agree they do not call --
`cover all possible ways.
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
`consider whether claim one of the 221 patent covered
`all possible ways of paying for and controlling
`access to content?
` A. I don't know that I would even know
`about all possible ways. So I didn't really think
`about it in that kind of global expansive type of
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`coverage.
` Q. So it's fair to say that in preparing
`your declaration you did not consider that claim one
`of the 221 patent covered all possible ways of
`paying for and controlling access to content?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. I considered how broad the claim
`coverage was but -- and it is broad, but I would not
`be -- I don't know that anybody could judge that any
`given claim could cover all possible ways in the
`universe to -- to do those functions, no.
` Q. Did you in preparing your declaration
`for the 221 patent consider how many alternate ways
`there were to pay for and control access to content
`that were not covered by claim one?
` A. Repeat the question, please.
` Q. Did you in preparing your declaration
`for the 221 patent consider how many alternate ways
`there were to pay for and control access to content
`that were not covered by claim one of the 221
`patent?
` A. I considered that claim in the context
`of what would be routine and conventional and well
`known in the art. I would not know whether that
`would be considered all possible ways, but just what
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`would be generally known.
` Q. I don't think you answered my question.
` Did you in preparing your declaration
`consider how many alternate ways there were to pay
`for and control access to content that were not
`covered by claim one of the 221 patent?
` A. It sounds like the answer would be a
`number to that question, and I did not count
`different ways that that might be done.
` Q. Did you assess whether technologies
`known to you would enable paying for and controlling
`access to content but not be covered by claim one of
`the 221 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. It took a little bit to get the question
`out. So if you could repeat it together for me.
` Q. Sure. Maybe I'll try to even rephrase
`it.
` When preparing your declaration on the 221
`patent, did you consider technologies known to you
`that would pay for -- sorry, that would enable one
`to pay for and control access to content that would
`not be covered by claim one of the 221 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. I don't consider that the active parts
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`of claim one necessarily involve technologies per
`se. I agree with the PTAB that it solves a business
`problem. So to the extent that you're asking me
`about alternate technologies, I don't think it's a
`technological issue that we're talking about here.
` Q. So I understand your answer, you're
`saying that there are both technological ways to pay
`for and control access to content and
`nontechnological ways to way pay for and control
`access to content; is that right?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. No, the -- in the general -- in a
`general sense I would have to agree with that.
` Q. So limiting your answer to the
`technological ways to pay for and control access to
`content, when you prepared your declaration for the
`221 patent, did you consider how many technological
`ways you knew of that would enable paying for and
`controlling access to content that were not covered
`by claim one of the 221 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever considered whether there
`are technological ways you know of that would enable
`paying for and controlling access to content that
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`are not covered by claim one of the 221 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. One more time.
` Q. Have you ever considered whether there
`are technological ways you know of that would enable
`paying for and controlling access to content that
`are not covered by claim one of the 221 patent?
` A. I'm sure I have.
` MS. FUKUDA: Sorry, I just -- let me --
` THE WITNESS: Sorry.
` MS. FUKUDA: I object to the form.
` A. I'm sure in my history in the DRM space
`for 30 plus, 35 years, I have at one time or
`another, sure.
` Q. How did you determine what those
`technological ways were that would enable paying for
`and controlling access to content that are not
`covered by the claim one of the 221 patent?
` A. I don't understand the question.
` Q. You said that in your 35 years in the
`DRM space you considered whether there are
`technological ways you know of that would enable
`paying for and controlling access to content that
`are not covered by claim one of the 221 patent;
`right?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. So that means you must have done an
`analysis of claim one versus a particular
`technology.
` A. No.
` Q. So then how do you know that those
`technologies are not covered by claim one of the 221
`patent?
` A. Well, I've already testified that it's
`not my opinion that claim one covers all conceivable
`ways of requesting access and paying for content,
`and I'm just simply saying in my expansive career
`history I'm sure I came across technological
`solutions that would do that function that would be
`outside the scope of these claims.
` Q. And I'm trying to understand what those
`technologies are.
` A. I couldn't on the spot answer that
`hypothetical. It's outside the scope of my
`declaration and I -- I don't know how to answer it.
` Q. Have you ever looked at -- sorry, strike
`that.
` Looking at claim one of the 221 patent,
`you'll see that claim one recites code to read
`payment data from the data carrier and to forward
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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`the payment data to a payment validation system.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is it possible to build a data access
`terminal as described in claim one but without code
`to read payment data from the data carrier and to
`forward the payment data to a payment validation
`system that would nonetheless enable paying for and
`controlling access to content?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. Read it in one -- again for me, please.
` Q. Is it possible to build a data access
`terminal as described in claim one but without "code
`to read payment data from the data carrier and to
`forward the payment data to a payment validation
`system" that would nonetheless enable paying for and
`controlling access to content?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. I don't know. I haven't considered the
`question.
` Q. Is it possible to build a data access
`terminal as claimed in claim one but without "code
`responsive to the payment validation data to
`retrieve data from the data supplier and to write
`the retrieved data into the data carrier" and
`nonetheless enable paying for and controlling access
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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`to content?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. It's also a question I have not
`considered, and on the spot I don't know, I can't
`answer that. I don't know.
` Q. So there are at least two alternate
`embodiments to a data access terminal as claimed in
`claim one which you have not considered may still
`enable paying for and controlling access to content
`even though your declaration indicates you believe
`that claim one is patent ineligible; correct?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. Read it again, please.
` Q. There are at least two alternate
`embodiments to a data access terminal as claimed in
`claim one which you have not considered may still
`enable paying for and controlling access to content
`even though your declaration indicates you believe
`that claim one is patent ineligible; correct?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection. Objection to
`form.
` A. I don't know about alternate
`embodiments. I studied the claims for what they
`are, and how they're interpreted in light of the
`specification. I didn't try to innovate beyond what
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`the claim language and functions are.
` Q. Without divulging the contents of any
`such report, have you ever given a report on
`noninfringing alternatives of claims of the 221
`patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to this line of
`questioning that you're starting here. It sounds
`like you may be trying to get into territories that
`have been at issue in front of the board regarding
`noninfringement positions that were taken in the
`district court, and as you know, Mr. Casey, the
`board has already denied Smartflash's motion to get
`discovery into that material, to avoid an
`infringement trial within this trial.
` MR. CASEY: I understand.
` But I also prefaced my question by saying
`"without divulging the contents of such report." So
`obviously I'm not asking what you said I'm asking
`for.
` You can answer the question,
`Mr. Wechselberger.
` MS. FUKUDA: I'm going to object to this
`as outside the scope.
` But you may answer.
` A. Oh. What was the question again?
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`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. Without divulging the contents of any
`such report, have you ever given a report on
`noninfringing alternatives of claims of the 221
`patent?
` A. I provided opinions on noninfringing
`alternatives for certain Smartflash claims. I don't
`remember which they were.
` Q. In preparing your declaration for the
`221 patent, did you analyze what future innovations
`would be foreclosed by claim one of the 221 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. I did not. I don't know how one could
`reasonably do that.
` Q. In preparing your declaration for any of
`the four patents at issue, did you analyze what
`future innovations would be foreclosed by any of the
`claims of those four patents?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. Same answer. Future innovations --
`innovations is a hugely broad arena, and, again,
`I -- I would not know how a single person could
`reasonably do that.
` Q. Did you analyze whether any claims in
`any of the four patents in which you gave
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`declarations have the potential to foreclose future
`innovations?
` A. I considered all of them with respect to
`all of the instituted claims. I did consider them
`with respect to their breadth, and I considered them
`with respect to the fact that due to their breadth,
`the question of preemption comes into play.
` I also considered the issue of what a
`smart -- what the respective specifications and the
`claims brought to the table in terms of the
`inventiveness.
` And having concluded that they didn't bring
`anything to the table with respect to inventiveness,
`then they shouldn't have any ability to preempt the
`field at all. So to the extent that there would be
`future innovations that they might preempt, I don't
`think that they should be allowed to do that. But I
`can't quantitatively describe any hypothetical
`future innovation.
` MR. CASEY: Objection, move to strike as
`nonresponsive.
` MS. FUKUDA: I disagree with that.
`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. Can you identify for me in your report
`where you discuss the potential of claim one to
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`foreclose future innovations?
` A. I'll have to look. I don't know.
` [Pause.]
` A. Paragraph 89 I talked about the concepts
`of conditioning access to content based on payment
`with respect to the single field of use. I said
`they were not limited to the single field of use.
`So that means they would apply to multiple fields.
`That does begin to address an answer to your
`question, I believe.
` Q. Are you done?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So you cite to paragraph 89, and it's
`disclosure of a single field of use. It doesn't say
`that that relates to future innovation though, does
`it?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection, form.
` A. That was -- no, it does not.
` Q. Does your report discuss how many
`technological implementations would be preempted by
`claim one -- sorry, strike that.
` Does your report discuss how many
`technological implementations of systems that enable
`paying for and controlling access to content would
`be preempted by claim one of the 221 patent?
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` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. Read it to me again, please.
` Q. Does your report discuss how many
`technological implementations of systems that enable
`paying for and controlling access to content would
`be preempted by claim one of the 221 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. No, it does not. But here again,
`presuming -- or at least it sounds like you're
`presuming that I think there might be technological
`implementations associated with the claimed
`elements, and I've already stated that in my opinion
`this is not -- they're not technological solutions
`to a technological problem. So in fact it would --
`there would be no reason for me to address that in
`my report.
` Q. In preparing your report on the 221
`patent, you did not consider -- sorry, strike that.
` Can you identify for me in your report on the
`221 patent whether any technological implementation
`of a system that would enable paying for and
`controlling access to content would not be covered
`by claim one of the 221 patent?
` A. One more time.
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection. Yeah.
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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` A. One more time all together, please.
`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. Can you identify for me in your report
`on the 221 patent whether any technological
`implementation of a system that would enable paying
`for and controlling access to content would not be
`covered by claim one of the 221 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. Not be covered.
` [Pause.]
` A. I think the prior art examples would by
`and large not be covered by -- they cover claim one,
`but claim one might not cover them to the extreme.
`For example, Ginter and Stefik offer a rich variety
`of different solutions. We could build lots of
`different solutions out of those that would be
`outside the scope of claim one, and they would be
`technological solutions.
` Q. Any others?
` A. I don't know. I haven't thought about
`that question before.
` Q. I'm going to hand you what's been
`premarked in CBM2-15-00016 as Apple Exhibit 1220.
`It should be your declaration. Let me know if you
`have it.
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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` A. Yes.
` Q. And I'm also going to hand you what's
`been premarked in the same proceeding as Apple
`Exhibit 1201. It is the 458 patent.
` In preparing your declaration on the 458
`patent, did you consider how many technological
`implementations of a portable data carrier might
`exist that would -- sorry, strike that.
` In preparing your declaration on the 458
`patent, did you consider how many portable data
`carriers might exist that enable providing access to
`content based on payment or rules that are not
`covered by claim one of the 458 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. Read it again, please.
` Q. In preparing your declaration on the 458
`patent, did you consider how many portable data
`carriers might exist that enable providing access to
`content based on payment or rules that are not
`covered by claim one of the 458 patent?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. No, I didn't do that kind of analysis.
`Again, the question begs a number as an answer, and
`I can't give you a number.
` Q. Can you give me a range?
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` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. No.
`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. Is it possible to build a portable data
`carrier that enables providing access to content
`based on payment or rules that are not covered by
`claim one of the 458 patent?
` And I'll read it again.
` Is it possible to build a portable data
`carrier that enables providing access to content
`based on payment or rules that is not covered by
`claim one of the 458 patent?
` [Pause.]
` A. I would have to think that there is a
`way to do that, yes.
` Q. Did you describe it in your declaration?
` A. No, I did not.
` Q. Is it possible to build a portable data
`carrier that enables providing access to content
`based on payment or rules as in claim one but which
`does not include a subscriber identity module
`portion to identify a subscriber to a network?
` A. Sure.
` Q. Is it possible to build a portable data
`carrier that enables providing access to content
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`based on payment or rules as in claim one of the 458
`patent but which does not include code to output
`payment data from the payment data memory to an
`interface?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection, form.
` A. One more time, please.
` Q. Is it possible to build a portable data
`carrier that provides access to content based on
`payment or rules as in claim one of the 458 patent
`but which does not include code to output payment
`data from the payment data memory to an interface?
` MS. FUKUDA: Same objection.
` A. Awful lot of hypotheticals going on in
`that question. So having not considered it, I'm not
`going to attempt to guess an answer today. I don't
`know.
` Q. In preparing your report, you did not
`consider whether or not it is possible to build a
`portable data carrier that provides access to
`content based on payment or rules as in claim one of
`the 458 patent but which does not include code to
`output payment from the payment data memory to an
`interface?
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
` A. Can you read it again, please?
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` Q. In preparing your report, you
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