Skidmore, Ronald
`
`February 18, 2015
`
`1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`TD AMERITRADE HOLDING CORP., TD )
`AMERITRADE, INC., and TD )
`AMERITRADE ONLINE HOLDINGS CORP.,)
` )
` Petitioners, )
` ) Case No.
` V. ) CBM2014-00131
` )
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES ) Patent No.
`INTERNATIONAL, INC., ) 7,533,056
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
` )
`TD AMERITRADE HOLDING CORP., TD )
`AMERITRADE, INC., and TD )
`AMERITRADE ONLINE HOLDINGS CORP.,)
` )
` Petitioners, )
` ) Case No.
` V. ) CBM2014-00133
` )
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES ) Patent No.
`INTERNATIONAL, INC., ) 7,676,411
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
`(Caption continues on following page.)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF RONALD SKIDMORE
` LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, FEBRUARY 18, 2015
`
`MARLA D. SHARP, RPR, CLR, CCRR, CSR No. 11924
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`TRADING TECH EXHIBIT 2096
`TD Ameritrade v. Trading Technologies
`CBM2014-00131
`
`Page 1 of 69
`
`
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`February 18, 2015
`
`1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`TD AMERITRADE HOLDING CORP., TD )
`AMERITRADE, INC., and TD )
`AMERITRADE ONLINE HOLDINGS CORP.,)
` )
` Petitioners, )
` ) Case No.
` V. ) CBM2014-00131
` )
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES ) Patent No.
`INTERNATIONAL, INC., ) 7,533,056
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
` )
`TD AMERITRADE HOLDING CORP., TD )
`AMERITRADE, INC., and TD )
`AMERITRADE ONLINE HOLDINGS CORP.,)
` )
` Petitioners, )
` ) Case No.
` V. ) CBM2014-00133
` )
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES ) Patent No.
`INTERNATIONAL, INC., ) 7,676,411
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
`(Caption continues on following page.)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF RONALD SKIDMORE
` LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, FEBRUARY 18, 2015
`
`MARLA D. SHARP, RPR, CLR, CCRR, CSR No. 11924
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`TRADING TECH EXHIBIT 2096
`TD Ameritrade v. Trading Technologies
`CBM2014-00131
`
`Page 1 of 69
`
`
`
`Skidmore, Ronald
`
`February 18, 2015
`
`2
`
`TD AMERITRADE HOLDING CORP., TD )
`AMERITRADE, INC., and TD )
`AMERITRADE ONLINE HOLDINGS CORP.,)
` )
` Petitioners, )
` ) Case No.
` V. ) CBM2014-00135
` )
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES ) Patent No.
`INTERNATIONAL, INC., ) 6,772,132
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
` )
`TD AMERITRADE HOLDING CORP., TD )
`AMERITRADE, INC., and TD )
`AMERITRADE ONLINE HOLDINGS CORP.,)
` )
` Petitioners, )
` ) Case No.
` V. ) CBM2014-00136
` )
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES ) Patent No.
`INTERNATIONAL, INC., ) 6,766,304
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
` )
`TD AMERITRADE HOLDING CORP., TD )
`AMERITRADE, INC., and TD )
`AMERITRADE ONLINE HOLDINGS CORP.,)
` )
` Petitioners, )
` ) Case No.
` V. ) CBM2014-00137
` )
`TRADING TECHNOLOGIES ) Patent No.
`INTERNATIONAL, INC., ) 7,685,055
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF RONALD SKIDMORE, taken on
`behalf of Patent Owner, at TransPerfect
`Translations, Inc., 2049 Century Park East, Room A,
`Los Angeles, California, commencing at 8:56 a.m.,
`Wednesday, February 18, 2015, before Marla D. Sharp,
`RPR, CLR, CCRR, CSR No. 11924.
`
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`3
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`FOR PETITIONERS:
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX
` BY: JONATHAN M. STRANG, ESQ.
` LORI GORDON, ESQ.
` MARK EVENS, ESQ.
` 1100 New York Avenue, NW
` Washington, DC 20005
` 202-371-2600
` jstrang@skgf.com
` lgordon@skgf.com
` mevens@skgf.com
`FOR PATENT OWNER:
` FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT &
` DUNNER, LLP
` BY: KEVIN D. RODKEY, ESQ.
` 3500 Suntrust Plaza
` 303 Peachtree Street, NE
` Atlanta, Georgia 30308
` 404-653-6400
` kevin.rodkey@finnegan.com
` FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT &
` DUNNER, LLP
` BY: JOSHUA L. GOLDBERG, ESQ.
` 901 New York Avenue, NW
` Washington, DC 20001
` 202-408-4000
` joshua.goldberg@finnegan.com
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Ryan Wong, videographer
` Harold Abilock
`
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`4
`
` I N D E X
`EXAMINATION PAGE
`RONALD SKIDMORE
` BY MR. RODKEY 6
` BY MR. STRANG 55
`
` EXHIBITS
`EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 2091 Second Declaration of Ronald E. 38
` Skidmore (1 page)
`
` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1007 Japanese version of Exhibit 15
` 1008 (335 pages, Bates Nos.
` TSE0000000647 - TSE0000000981)
`Exhibit 1008 Futures/Option Purchasing 41
` System Trading Terminal
` Operation Guide, Tokyo Stock
` Exchange, Operations Systems
` Division (335 pages, Bates Nos.
` TSE0000000647 - TSE0000000981)
`Exhibit 1017 Declaration of Ronald E. 11
` Skidmore (1 page)
`Exhibit 1036 Declaration of Ronald E. 11
` Skidmore (1 page)
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`5
` LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 2015
`
` 8:56 A.M.
` * * *
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are
`going on the record at 8:56 a.m. Today's date is
`February 18th, 2015. This is Volume No. 1, media
`unit 1, of the video deposition of Ronald Skidmore
`in the matter of TD Ameritrade Holding Corp versus
`Trading Technologies International, Inc., filed in
`the United States Patent and Trademark Office. The
`case number is CBM2014-00131. This deposition is
`being held at 2029 Century Park East, Conference
`Room A, Los Angeles, California 90067.
` My name is Ryan Wong. I am the
`videographer representing Henderson Legal Services.
` Will counsel and all present state their
`appearances and affiliations for the record, please.
` MR. RODKEY: Kevin Rodkey, with Finnegan,
`Henderson, Farabow, Garrett & Dunner, for Trading
`Technologies.
` MR. GOLDBERG: Joshua Goldberg, with
`Finnegan, for Trading Technologies.
` MR. ABILOCK: Harold Abilock of JapanLink
`Translations.
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
`
`6
` MR. STRANG: Jonathan Strang, of Sterne
`Kessler, for TD Ameritrade. And with me today I
`have Lori Gordon and Mark Evens, also of Sterne
`Kessler.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter is
`Marla Sharp, representing Henderson Legal Services,
`and will now swear in the witness.
` RONALD SKIDMORE,
` having been first duly sworn,
` was examined and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Good morning, Mr. Skidmore.
` Would you please state your name and
`address for the record?
` A Ronald Eugene Skidmore. 46443 Westfir Road
`Westfir, Oregon 97492.
` Q And do you understand that you're under
`oath today as if you're testifying in court?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And do you understand that this means you
`must tell the truth?
` A Yes.
` Q And we have a reporter here today, and her
`job is to take down our conversation as accurately
`
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
`
`7
`as possible. And for that reason I ask that you
`speak clearly and accurately so that she can
`accurately transcribe what's said and also for the
`video as well.
` Can you do that for me?
` A Yes.
` Q And, because she's transcribing, I ask that
`we try not to interrupt one another. So, if I'm
`asking a question, please wait to answer until I've
`finished. And, if you're giving an answer, I will
`try to wait until you finish to ask my next
`question.
` Can we agree to that?
` A Yes.
` Q And do you understand that this transcript
`can be used in a court or other administrative
`proceeding?
` A Yes.
` Q And, Mr. Skidmore, have you ever been
`deposed before?
` A No, I haven't.
` Q Okay. Well, I'll just give you a little
`background on what's going to happen. We're here to
`ask a couple questions about an affidavit and a
`translation that you made, and we're just trying to
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`8
`get more information about that. We're not trying
`to trick you.
` So, if you don't understand any question
`that I've asked, will you please ask me to rephrase?
`And I'll try and clarify.
` A (Nodded head.) Okay.
` Q And also because we're being transcribed I
`need a verbal answer, please.
` A Okay.
` Q And, if you don't ask me to clarify a
`question, can I assume that you understood the
`question I asked?
` A I think so, yes.
` Q And from time to time counsel for
`TD Ameritrade may object. Do you understand that,
`unless you're instructed not to answer, that you're
`required to answer the question?
` A Yes.
` Q And I'll try to take a break about every
`hour or so. But, if you need a break another time,
`feel free to let me know. The only thing I ask is
`that, if I've asked a question, please answer the
`question before we take the break.
` Is that okay?
` A That's fine.
`
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`9
` Q And do you understand that during the
`breaks you're not permitted to talk with anyone
`about your testimony?
` A Yes.
` Q And that includes counsel for
`TD Ameritrade. Do you understand that?
` A Yes.
` Q And is there any reason that you cannot
`testify truthfully and accurately today?
` A No.
` Q And have you taken any medications or other
`substances that would prevent you from testifying
`truthfully?
` A No.
` Q And if anything happens to -- that prevents
`you from testifying truthfully and accurately, will
`you tell me?
` A Yes.
` Q And, Mr. Skidmore, did you do anything to
`prepare for this deposition?
` A I talked with Jon and Mark and Lori.
` Q And, when you say "Jon and Mark and Lori,"
`are you referring to counsel for TD Ameritrade --
` A Yes.
` Q -- that are here today?
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`10
` And did you talk with anyone else?
` A No.
` Q And when did you meet with Jon?
` A Yesterday.
` Q And when did you meet with Lori?
` A I met with all of them at the same time.
` Q And how long did you meet with them?
` A I don't remember exactly. Maybe two hours.
` Q And did you review any documents when you
`met with them?
` A No.
` Q And did you review any documents at any
`other time?
` A No.
` Q Did you discuss your testimony with Jon or
`Mark or Lori when you met with them?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Form.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Did you discuss the testimony that you're
`going to give today when you met with counsel for
`TD Ameritrade?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Privileged work
`product.
` You may answer yes or no.
` THE WITNESS: Just -- not exactly, no.
`
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`11
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Did you discuss the testimony of any other
`witnesses when you met with counsel for
`TD Ameritrade?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Privileged work
`product.
` You may answer yes or no.
` A No.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q And, Mr. Skidmore, I'm handing you what's
`been marked as Exhibit TDA 1036 and preceding
`CBM2014-00131.
` And, Mr. Skidmore, do you recognize this
`document?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And what does it appear to be?
` A Pardon?
` Q What does it appear to be?
` A A declaration.
` Q Whose declaration?
` A It's a declaration that I made.
` Q And when did you make this declaration?
` A Says here December 30, 2014.
` Q And I'm handing you what's been marked as
`Exhibit TDA 1017 and CBM2014-00137.
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`12
` And, Mr. Skidmore, do you recognize this
`document?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And what does it appear to be?
` A It appears to be exactly the same as the
`one you handed me before.
` Q And, if you look in front of you, you'll
`see two large documents, the two in front of you --
` A Yes.
` Q -- one in Japanese and one in English.
` And if you'll look at the one in the lower
`right-hand corner, it's marked as Exhibit 1008 and
`CBM2014-00137. Do you see that?
` A All this has is "TDA 1008."
` Q Yes, that's the one I'm talking about.
` And do you recognize this document?
` A Well, I've never seen this particular page.
`I don't know if I recognize this document or not.
` Q Okay. Feel free to flip through it and
`look at it.
` And, Counsel, I'm just going to put our
`stipulation on the record now.
` MR. STRANG: Yeah, we agree that the
`Japanese and English versions of the TSE document
`are the same in both proceedings.
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`13
` THE WITNESS: So, no, I've never seen this
`part. I've seen only the few page- -- well, come to
`think of it, I don't really know if I've seen this
`before. This might not be anything that I've ever
`seen before. Might be done by somebody else.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Okay. Let's look at your declaration for a
`minute. And I'm looking at Exhibit 1017 that I
`handed you previously.
` Do you see paragraph 2 of your declaration?
` A Yes.
` Q Would you please read paragraph 2.
` A "My qualifications to translate
` technical documentation, such as the
` Tokyo Stock Exchange document titled
` 'Futures/Option Purchasing System -
` Trading Terminal Operation Guide'
` ('the TSE document') includes."
` Q That's fine for now.
` And would you read the title of the English
`document marked Exhibit 1008?
` A "Futures/Option Purchasing
` System Trading Terminal Operation
` Guide."
` Q And do those appear to have the same title?
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`14
` A They appear to have the same title.
` Q And do you see paragraph 3 of your
`declaration?
` A Yes.
` Q Would you please read that into the record.
` A "I personally translated pages
` 101 to 140 of the TSE document from
` Japanese to English to the best of
` my ability. I certify that the
` translations of those pages are
` accurate and correct."
` Q Okay. Would you please turn to page 101 of
`Exhibit 1008?
` A This is 0101, right?
` Q 0101, yes.
` Do you recognize this page?
` A Well, it's been a long time. So, if this
`is what I translated, then, okay.
` Q Is this your translation?
` A Well, I would have to receive a copy of the
`document that I actually turned in and compare it
`with this before I do that.
` Q Okay. Mr. Skidmore, for purposes of this
`deposition, let's assume that this is your
`translation.
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`15
` Is that okay with you?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Foundation, form.
` THE WITNESS: Why should we assume that?
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q And, in your declaration, did you testify
`that you translated pages 101 to 140 of this
`document?
` A Yes, I did. But I'm not sure that this is
`the actual copy of what I translated -- that this is
`my translation.
` Q Okay. Well, is it okay if I ask you a
`couple questions about this translation?
` A Sure.
` Q Okay. I am looking on the bottom -- I'm
`looking on page 101, 0101. That's also marked, just
`for the record, as TSE 747.
` And, Mr. Skidmore, in the translation do
`you see the figure in the middle of the page that
`has the word "page select" in the top left corner?
` A Yes.
` Q Would you please look at the Japanese
`document that's next to you as well marked
`Exhibit 1007. And please turn to the same page,
`0101.
` MR. STRANG: Is there a question pending?
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`16
` MR. RODKEY: I'm -- the witness is looking
`at the pages. I'm giving him a couple minutes to do
`that.
` MR. STRANG: Okay.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q And so, Mr. Skidmore, I want to point you
`to that middle box --
` A Yes.
` Q -- that I was just referring to.
` Do you see at the bottom where it says "KB"
`and "OK"?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you see those in the corresponding
`translation?
` A No, I --
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Foundation,
`relevancy.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q And do you see left of the letters "KB,"
`there are two Japanese characters in the Japanese
`document?
` A Yes.
` Q Can you determine what those characters
`say?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Foundation,
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`17
`relevancy.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Can you read those characters?
` A I can read them.
` Q What do they say?
` A What is the importance of this?
` Q We have some questions about the accuracy
`of the translation that I've given you.
` A The more I look at this, the more it
`doesn't even seem like mine. I don't know -- you
`know, I can't really...
` Q So you think this is not your translation?
` A I'm seeing various signs that -- it doesn't
`look anything like what I did.
` Q Why does it not look like what you did?
` A Because I don't forget things like this
`(indicating).
` MR. STRANG: Let the record show the
`witness pointed to the illegible block on the
`printed-out page 0101. And that is the illegible
`block on the Japanese-language version.
` MR. RODKEY: Counsel, we just want to
`reflect that this is a -- the Japanese document is a
`printout. The original may or may not have been
`legible. It's speculation whether it was illegible.
`
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`February 18, 2015
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`18
` MR. STRANG: I never said it was legible or
`illegible. I just said that this printout that you
`gave the witness is not legible.
` Are you contending that the printout you
`gave the witness is legible?
` MR. RODKEY: That's for the witnesses to
`decide, and I believe the witness said he could read
`those characters.
` MR. STRANG: I think you're
`mischaracterizing his testimony, but I could be
`wrong.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Mr. Skidmore, do you -- those two
`characters I was just referring to at the bottom of
`that figure, do you see the corresponding English
`translation in the English document?
` A No. It is missing.
` Q And, at the bottom of the Japanese
`document, do you see the second figure below the
`wide arrow?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And, in the bottom left-hand corner,
`do you see the characters for "hikenari" and
`"nariyuki."
` And I will spell those for the reporter:
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`19
`h-i-k-e-n-a-r-i and n-a-r-i-y-u-k-i.
` A That's "nariyuki."
` Q Do you see those?
` A They're there, yes.
` Q And do you see where they've been
`translated as -- or do you see where "hikenari" has
`been translated as "index"?
` A Yes.
` Q And do you see where "nariyuki" has been
`translated as "outcome"?
` A Yes.
` Q And do you agree with those translations?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Foundation,
`relevancy.
` THE WITNESS: I don't see anything wrong
`with the translations.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Okay. Let's turn to page 0115.
` I think you may be on the wrong page. It's
`115, not 105.
` And I'm looking at the bottom figure. Do
`you see that it has two parts, a left part and a
`right part?
` A Yes.
` Q And in the left part, next to the "1" and
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`February 18, 2015
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`20
`the "2," do you see the same characters for
`"hikenari" and "nariyuki"?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Foundation,
`relevancy.
` THE WITNESS: I see the "hikenari" and
`"nariyuki."
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q And do you see that in this box they've
`been translated as "closing market"?
` A Yes.
` Q And this is a different translation from
`the previous page we were looking at where they were
`translated as "index" and "outcome"?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Foundation,
`relevancy.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Is this a different translation of those
`characters?
` MR. STRANG: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: It may be appropriate for
`this, and the others may have been appropriate for
`the other. They're not necessarily wrong.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Do you believe that they're both
`appropriate?
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`Skidmore, Ronald
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`February 18, 2015
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`21
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Foundation,
`relevancy, calls for speculation, calls for expert
`testimony.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not here to say
`what I believe.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Let's look at the top of -- the very top of
`page 115. Do you see where it says "Chapter 7" in
`the English document?
` A Yes. Pardon me. Yes.
` Q And back on page 101 do you also see that
`that says "Chapter 7"?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you think in the context of the same
`chapter it is likely that the two characters would
`be translated the same?
` MR. STRANG: Objection. Foundation,
`relevancy, calls for speculation, calls for expert
`opinion.
` THE WITNESS: It's possible.
`BY MR. RODKEY:
` Q Okay. Let's turn to page --
`
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