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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ____________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________
` APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` SMARTFLASH LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` _____________________
` Case CBM2014-00102
` Patent 8,118,221 B2
` Case CBM2014-00106
` Patent 8,033,458 B2
` Case CBM2014-00108
` Patent 8,061,598 B2
` Case CBM2014-00112
` Patent 7,942,317 B2
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` ANTHONY J. WECHSELBERGER
` DECEMBER 10, 2014
` 9:00 a.m.
`
`REPORTED BY:
`PAUL J. FREDERICKSON, CCR, CSR
`JOB NO. 36911
`
`Page 1
`
`Smartflash - Exhibit 2025
`Apple v. Smartflash
`CBM2014-00106
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ____________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________
` APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` SMARTFLASH LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` _____________________
` Case CBM2014-00102
` Patent 8,118,221 B2
` Case CBM2014-00106
` Patent 8,033,458 B2
` Case CBM2014-00108
` Patent 8,061,598 B2
` Case CBM2014-00112
` Patent 7,942,317 B2
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` ANTHONY J. WECHSELBERGER
` DECEMBER 10, 2014
` 9:00 a.m.
`
`REPORTED BY:
`PAUL J. FREDERICKSON, CCR, CSR
`JOB NO. 36911
`
`Page 1
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`Smartflash - Exhibit 2025
`Apple v. Smartflash
`CBM2014-00106
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
` DAVIDSON BERQUIST JACKSON & GOWDEY, LLP
` 4300 Wilson Blvd.
` 7th Floor
` Arlington, VA 22203
` BY: MICHAEL R. CASEY, Ph.D., ESQ.
` mcasey@dbjg.com
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
` CALDWELL CASSADY CURRY
` 2101 Cedar Springs Rd.
` Suite 1000
` Dallas, TX 75201
` BY: BRADLEY W. CALDWELL, ESQ.
` bcaldwell@caldwellcc.com
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
` ROPES & GRAY, LLP
` 1900 University Avenue
` 6th Floor
` East Palo Alto, CA 94303-2284
` BY: LAUREN N. ROBINSON, ESQ.
` Lauren.Robinson@ropesgray.com
`
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`FOR THE PETITIONER:
` ROPES & GRAY, LLP
` 1211 Avenue of the Americas
` New York, NY 10036-8704
` 212.596.9000
` BY: BRIAN D. MATTY, ESQ.
` Patent Agent
` brian.Matty@ropesgray.com
`ALSO PRESENT:
` JEFREE ANDERSON
` Videographer
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` I N D E X
`ANTHONY J. WECHSELBERGER
` By Mr. Casey: 6
`
`Request for information: None
`Request for documents: None
`
` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
`All Exhibits premarked
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` WECHSELBERGER
` DECEMBER 10, 2014
` [9 o'clock a.m.]
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins the video
`deposition of Anthony Wechselberger in the matter of
`Apple Incorporated versus Smartflash LLC in the
`court United States Patent and Trademark Office
`before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board.
` This deposition is being held at Ropes & Gray
`in East Palo Alto, California on December 10, 2014
`at approximately 9:01 a.m.
` My name is Jefree Anderson from the firm of
`David Feldman Worldwide and I am the legal video
`specialist. The court reporter is Paul
`Frederickson, in association with David Feldman
`Worldwide.
` Would counsel please introduce themselves?
` MS. ROBINSON: I'm Lauren Robinson from
`the law firm of Ropes & Gray. I represent Apple
`Inc., And with me my colleague Brian Matty, also
`from Ropes & Gray.
` MR. CASEY: This is Michael Casey from
`Davidson Berquist representing patent owner.
` MR. CALDWELL: Brad Caldwell, of
`Caldwell Cassady Curry, representing the patent
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` WECHSELBERGER
`owner.
`ANTHONY J. WECHSELBERGER, being duly sworn on oath,
` was examined and
` testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. Good morning.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. My name is Michael Casey. We've met
`before.
` From your declaration and CV it appears that
`you've been deposed on a number of occasions; is
`that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. So as a reminder, I'm going to try to
`ask you a series of questions, some of which will be
`yes and no questions, some of which will require
`narrative answers. If I ask you a question and you
`don't understand the question, please tell me, and
`I'll rephrase the question. If I don't understand
`what you don't understand about the question, I may
`ask you what it is about the question that you don't
`understand.
` Is that process clear?
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` WECHSELBERGER
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` As you know, the -- the proceedings is being
`videotaped. It's also being recorded by a court
`reporter. So you'll have to actually give answers
`that are out loud. You can't shake your head or nod
`or whatever the other nonverbal response might be.
` A. Understood.
` Q. If at any point during the proceeding
`you need a break, let me know. We'll take a break.
`I'll try to take a break every hour or so. If it
`turns out that you need it at a different time,
`we'll find an appropriate time to take a break.
` This deposition is going to be used for a
`number of different proceedings, so I'm going to try
`to refer to the exhibit number frequently so we
`don't get lost on which exhibit is which. Some of
`the numbers are repeated between different
`proceedings, some of them don't overlap. So I'm
`going to try to keep the exhibit numbers clear.
` If at any point in time you get lost on what
`the exhibit number is we're dealing with, please
`stop, and we'll try to clarify where we are.
` Also, if you want to refer to the exhibit
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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` WECHSELBERGER
`number during your answer, that's fine, too. That
`might make for a clearer record. So I won't -- I
`won't object if you want to say Exhibit 101 says
`whatever. That's perfectly fine.
` A. Okay.
` Q. I would like to start off with some
`questions about your background and your
`qualifications and I'm going to start with some of
`the documents from CBM2014-00102. Since saying
`CBM2014-00102 seems awkward or lengthy, I may refer
`to it as the 102CBM.
` Would that be okay with you?
` A. Yeah, the number 102 doesn't mean
`anything to me. Is this -- is this one of my
`declarations?
` Q. So the -- today we'll be talking about
`eight different declarations, and each of the
`declarations is for a patent that's -- that's being
`challenged.
` Here, I'll start with one of these, and we
`can try to make this as seamless as possible. I'm
`going to -- if it's okay with counsel -- hand him a
`copy of what has been premarked by Apple as Apple
`Exhibit 1021 for the first of the two challenges to
`
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` WECHSELBERGER
`patent -- US patent number 8,118,221.
` And if you want to, you can write on -- go
`ahead and write on this. This is the petition for
`CBM2014-00102. That's the number that the patent
`office assigned to the case.
` Does that make sense?
` A. Well, we'll make do. Now that I have it
`in my hand, I know what we're talking about. Thank
`you.
` Q. Okay.
` So if you want to, feel free to either write
`on it that that's the one for 102 or -- you don't
`have to. I'm not going to make your copy an
`exhibit. But that's the -- that's what we're going
`to be talking about when we talk about the 102CBM.
` A. Got it.
` Q. All right.
` Now, as I mentioned, there are a number of
`other proceedings, and they each were assigned a --
`a reference number, if you will, from the patent
`office: CBM for covered business method, 2014 for
`the fiscal year in which it was filed, and then a
`number, which is the -- the CBM proceeding from that
`fiscal year that that case is.
`
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` WECHSELBERGER
` So, for example, for the same 221 patent, the
`US Patent and Trademark Office instituted
`CBM2014-00103. And so I'll talk about that one when
`we get to it as the 103, 103 proceeding. Okay?
` A. Understood.
` Q. And then essentially there were 12
`petitions filed at the -- roughly the same time, and
`they were assigned numbers from 102 to 113.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And so for once we're lucky that they
`were all done sequentially. Some of the later ones
`weren't.
` But also not all of the petitions were
`granted. So there will be a gap between the
`numbers. Today we'll be talking about the 102 and
`103CBMs, the 106 and 107CBMs the 108 and 109CBMs and
`the 112 and 113CBMs. Okay?
` A. Sounds correct.
` Q. I see that you brought a whole bunch of
`paper with you today. Were you worried we didn't
`have enough paper? Are those your own copies?
` A. Yes. Here are -- of the four
`institute -- of the four patents that -- I'm sorry,
`the four declarations corresponding to the four
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` WECHSELBERGER
`numbers, the numbers you just gave me, there are
`eight declarations here covering the 221, 317, 458
`and 598 patents.
` I have a copy of the asserted patent.
` I have a set of the claims only for each of
`the four patents that we will be talking about
`today, so I can easily reference the claims.
` I have the art of Stefik, Ginter and Poggio.
` And then finally I made a cheat sheet that
`summarizes in a handy way for me for our work here
`today that shows the patents that -- that were
`petitioned, those that were instigated, not
`instigated, and some of the terms that are being
`debated between the parties on the litigation side
`of this matter.
` [Document handed to counsel.]
` Q. Okay. We'll have to come back to this.
`I don't -- I don't know what to make of the cheat
`sheet for the moment. There are certainly issues in
`the case that are in the CBMs that are -- that are
`not involved in the cheat sheet.
` So why don't you leave that sheet to the side
`for the moment?
` MR. CALDWELL: Can we get copies of it
`
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` WECHSELBERGER
`at the break?
` MS. ROBINSON: Yeah.
` MR. CASEY: Okay.
`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. So I've already handed you what's
`previously been marked Exhibit 1021 in the 102CBM.
`It appears to be the first of eight declarations
`that you signed for the 2014 CBMs. I'll call the
`cases that were all filed in fiscal 2014 the 2014
`CBMs, the eight cases that we're talking about
`today. Would that be okay with you?
` A. Okay.
` Q. All right.
` Because you -- we filed other ones in fiscal
`2015 and they're not the subject of our discussion
`today.
` A. If you say so. We're not in 2015, so I
`don't know how they could be filed. So I find that
`confusing. But whatever.
` Q. The patent office fiscal year began on
`October 1. So --
` A. Oh, okay. Thanks.
` Q. So I would like to start by looking at
`your CV, page 48, appendix A. Would you mind
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` WECHSELBERGER
`turning to it, please?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you see it?
` A. Yes, I have it. Thank you.
` Q. Okay.
` So it starts on page 48, and I would like to
`begin by going to page 49, which is the education.
`Did you receive a bachelor's of science in
`electrical engineering from the University of
`Arizona in 1974?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you tell me about the course work
`that you took at University of Arizona that related
`to your major?
` A. Course work was generally focused on
`communications technology, both analog and digital
`communications systems equipment and networks.
` Also focused on what was then considered to
`be digital logic in types of engineering, what we
`now call solid state engineering. The components
`that one uses to assemble for computers, for
`example.
` Q. Can you tell me about the analog
`communications systems that you studied?
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` WECHSELBERGER
` A. The science of -- of modulation and
`demodulation and transmission primarily.
` Q. Do you remember any of the particular
`types of modulation techniques?
` A. All the classical ones that one studies:
`amplitude modulation, frequency -- AM for amplitude
`modulations, FM for frequency modulation. More
`complex modulation techniques such as the vestigial
`side band or called VSB. And -- and work as to how
`those were actually used in the real world such as
`satellite communications, television broadcasting FM
`and AM radio.
` Q. Okay.
` How about the digital communications classes,
`what did they focus on?
` A. Formal logic, which is the methods and
`processes behind digital and -- digital logic, ones
`and zeroes.
` Also learned about how digital logic was used
`and put together, the various components, such as
`how you build timers, counters, registers. These
`were back in the days when you built circuits out of
`eight pin dual inline packages or DIPs. And so the
`course work seems rather fundamental now looking
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` WECHSELBERGER
`back at it 40 years later. But that's where the --
`that's where the state of the art was in those days.
` Q. So did you study any digital
`communication protocols as opposed to digital
`communication logic?
` A. I -- I went in -- went on to study
`digital communication protocols when I marked on my
`master's degree.
` Q. So at the time you did your bachelor's,
`there were no digital communication protocols that
`were part of your undergraduate studies?
` A. I don't remember; it's been too long.
` Q. Okay.
` In addition to analog and digital
`communications, you also mentioned components that
`are used to assemble computers as part of solid
`state engineering. What kind of digital logic
`classes did you have?
` A. Classes that taught us how to think
`about develop -- designing and implementing
`sequential circuits, which are state machines that
`you can formally develop tables and processes, if
`you can, for example, explain a process that you
`would like to implement using digital logic. Again,
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` WECHSELBERGER
`we were building components out of gates and
`flip-flops and counters and registers in those days.
`And so the classes taught us how to formally
`describe the process, build the -- the tables that
`then told us how to translate that into actual dual
`inline package components.
` Q. Would you say that within your major
`your courses were mostly related to analog design or
`digital design?
` A. As far as communications technology, it
`was primarily focused on analog. That's where all
`double A's begin their work.
` And in those days digital signal processing
`wasn't necessarily combined yet with -- with
`communications, at least not -- not in the work I
`did in my undergraduate level.
` Q. During your undergraduate program, did
`you have any courses in programming languages?
` A. Oh, yeah. We learned Fortran and BASIC
`as computer languages and wrote programs to -- to
`meet various assignments that we were given.
` Q. Besides Fortran and BASIC, any others
`that you can think of?
` A. I can't remember.
`
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` Q. Assembly language?
` A. Not at that time.
` Q. Did you receive a master's of science in
`electrical engineering from San Diego State
`University in 1979?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you tell me about the course work
`that you took at San Diego State University?
` A. Sure. By then I had several years of
`industry experience in aerospace, and found myself
`working in digital signal, the areas of digital
`signal processing, radar processing systems, and --
`and digital communications. And so I -- my master's
`program was focused now on digital signal
`processing, advanced signal processing, for building
`digital filters, digital processing computers,
`advanced technologies associated with digital
`communication systems.
` Q. Okay.
` So the advanced signal processing that you
`were working on, was that for image processing or
`communications or what, what field?
` A. All of the above. I worked on one
`program where we were processing -- digitally
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`processing radar images from a helicopter borne
`radar system.
` I was the chief designer of the radar moving
`target indicator radar processor that went on board
`the helicopter. We had an air to ground data link
`that moved the bits from -- from the -- from the
`helicopter to the ground. So that was an actual
`implementation work that I was doing as an engineer.
` In my master's program I took courses that
`revolved around those kinds of signal processing.
`So whether it was image or sound or just computer
`data, the nice thing about digital signal processing
`is bits are bits.
` Q. During your master's program did you
`have any programming courses?
` A. No. I was doing programming both in
`high level languages and assembly languages in my
`work at General Dynamics at the time.
` Oh, I stand corrected. I do remember taking
`a micro, what we called micro programming class, as
`part of my master's program, and this is very low
`level, even below assembly language code, where
`you -- where you actually are working in the heart
`of the central processing unit of a computer.
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` Q. Mapping out essentially register
`transfer level changes?
` A. Read and write to memory, fundamental
`arithmetic operations and multiplications, and so
`forth.
` Q. Great.
` Any other languages besides assembly Fortran
`and BASIC at the time of your masters?
` A. Oh, eventually I did some C programming.
` Q. By 1979?
` A. Yeah, a little bit by then. A little
`bit more after I changed jobs. But I mean I never
`really worked as a programmer as an engineer.
` Q. And I think that we've established
`during the time frame from 1974 to 1979 you were
`also working you said at General Dynamics; is that
`right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Can you describe for me what your
`responsibilities were at General Dynamics during
`that time period?
` A. Well, I -- right out of school I started
`it as an individual contributor working on work -- I
`was -- it was typical in those days to be assigned
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`to a senior person to help shepherd you along as you
`began your industry life.
` And I worked on various war game
`instrumentation types of products. Again, these are
`digitally implemented portable devices that could
`transmit and receive small packages of digital
`information. They were part of what was called a
`transponder, which is a device that would receive
`communications from a central location, process the
`communications, and then at a precise point in time
`transmit back to the central location a response.
` The system had a number of different
`physically located transponders, and by precisely
`measuring time delays the overall network could
`triangulate physical locations. And so these
`transponders were put on things like tanks,
`airplanes, mobile ground troops, and you could in
`fact record and map out the movement of the entire
`battle area. This was war game, war games, not war.
` So I worked on various components that
`supported this type of range measuring system, RMS
`it was called. I did that for a year or so, year
`and a half.
` And then after that I went to the MTI radar
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`signal processing helicopter system I just
`mentioned.
` Subsequent to that I worked on the
`fundamental prototypes for what we now know as the
`global positioning system, GPS. General Dynamics
`was my employer, and they had the research and
`development, a piece of the research and development
`on behalf of government, to do proof of concept for
`the GPS system, which hadn't -- didn't have any
`satellites in the sky in those days, but that was
`all being planned. And so they did all the testing
`on ground based systems.
` I worked on some of the original transmitters
`and receivers that were spread across an eight foot
`table, which you'll now find in a piece of sand in
`your phone, cellphone. But it was fascinating
`stuff.
` Q. And that, the transmitters and receivers
`that you're describing being spread across the
`table, that's because of the -- the fact that you
`had to build them from discrete components?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Must have been a little hard to put that
`onto a person.
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` A. The original prototypes were rather
`crude. By the time they ended up in man packs, they
`were significantly reduced.
` Q. So after General Dynamics, where did you
`go to work next?
` A. I left GD in February of 1980 and joined
`Oak Industries. You see that on the resume on page
`49.
` I joined a research group at Oak Industries
`called the advanced technology group. Oak
`Industries was the parent company, Fortune 500
`company, and they had recently come to San Diego
`area. I became aware of -- of them through other
`folks at GD who had moved on, and ended up taking a
`job with the research group.
` I was one of about six to eight specialists
`at the time, each of us within a -- a specialist in
`a different technology area. My area was digital
`signal processing and digital communications on
`behalf of the group.
` And we did applied research on behalf of the
`various divisions of Oak Industries, primarily
`looking at communications type systems.
` Q. Your resume says that you developed and
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` WECHSELBERGER
`patented the industry's first hard encryption key
`management. Can you tell me what that is?
` A. Sure. One of the divisions of Oak
`Industries that was co-located where I was at the
`research group was Oak Communications. Oak
`Communications was involved in designing security
`systems for the pay TV industry, such as scrambling
`systems or encryption systems, and set top boxes,
`and these were applied to over the air broadcast
`networks, to cable TV networks, as well as
`satellite, eventually to satellite networks.
` Scrambling technologies up to that point in
`time had been primarily implemented in the pay TV
`industry in -- by analog techniques, which are
`fairly simple to overcome or to hack, if you will.
`And so one of the first assignments I was given in
`the research group was we as a company need to learn
`more about military level encryption processes so
`that we can see if they can be applied to the pay TV
`networks that we service.
` And that led to me working with a renowned
`cryptographer out of MIT who was brought in as a
`consultant, and we developed digital security
`techniques to be applied to the cable -- to the
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` WECHSELBERGER
`cable and satellite broadcast industries using --
`the term "hard encryption" is typically attached to
`delineate or separate what is harder to hack from
`things which are not so hard to hack, like analog
`scrambling processes. And so the outgrowth of some
`of this work was a couple of patents that came out
`in Oak's name.
` Turned out to be focused on, when you apply
`encryption, you have a key management process to
`take care of. That is cryptographic keys that are
`used to encrypt and decrypt information. And those
`keys have to be distributed in the network so they
`can be used. So by applying encryption technologies
`you often find that you're transforming the problem
`of protecting the actual content or information into
`a problem of protecting the keys. And that's called
`key management.
` Q. Who was the consultant from MIT?
` A. Professor Ron Rivest.
` Q. Was he named on the resulting patents?
` A. He elected not to be named for whatever
`reasons. I wasn't directly involved in the
`management of the patent process then. I do recall
`though he was asked to sign a -- a waiver or
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` WECHSELBERGER
`something which indicates that he chose to not have
`his name on it.
` Q. So we were talking about -- about the
`key management issue and the patents. There's a
`patent listed on your resume, US patent number
`4,531,020. Is that the key management patent you
`were talking about?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you were a named inventor?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Was that the patent that Ron Rivest
`asked not to be named as an inventor on?
` MS. ROBINSON: Objection to form.
` A. That at least was one. There were two
`crypto patents filed. My name was not on the other
`one, although I worked on that subsystem. So it was
`either that one or both of them. I don't remember
`anymore.
`BY MR. CASEY:
` Q. I'm going to hand you --
` MR. CASEY: Actually, I'll hand to your
`counsel first.
` MS. ROBINSON: Thank you.
`BY MR. CASEY:
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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` Q. I'm going to hand you what's been
`premarked as Smartflash Exhibit 2006. Sorry for the
`reach. I believe this is the US patent number
`4,531,020 that we were discussing; is that correct?
` A. Yeah. Yes.
` Q. And you're the first named inventor on
`this case; is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And this is the case you worked with Ron
`Rivest on?
` A. I would say that Ron worked with us in a
`general sense to develop -- first to understand the
`nature of the -- of the systems that we were
`developing, broadcast applications, and to also --
`he -- we got him up the learning curve as to the
`kinds of threats that we typically addressed from
`the hacker community. And as a result of this,
`these types of interchange, he worked on us as an
`architectural level. So, you know, this patent is
`representative of the kinds of solutions that came
`out of the work product that we developed with him.
` Q. Okay.
` So it looks like while at Oak you made a
`number of job jumps, but I would like to try to go
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`back to page 48 and see where all of this ended up.
` It says that you were vice president of
`project management until 1999. At what point did
`TV/COM become a subsidiary of Hyundai Electronics?
` A. Well, we haven't actually figured out
`where TV/COM came from. So can I quickly just --
` Q. Sure.
` A. -- show that basis, Oak?
` At the end of the decade of the '80s, after
`two years research in Oak Industries, I joined Oak
`Communications, and then there are a number -- as
`you recognize on page 49, I occupied a number of
`different increasingly high level responsible
`positions at Oak Communications.
` In 1990 that company got sold to a private
`group. It carried the name of Oak Communications
`for a little while, after which it changed the name
`to TV/COM. So TV/COM was a subsidiary of Oak
`Communications in a private company. And I went
`with the new company TV/COM.
` And there I started out as executive vice
`president and chief technical officer, a role which
`I occupied for a number of years. About halfway
`through 19- -- the decade of the '90s our funding
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`began to run down, and we were -- we were bought by
`Hyundai Electronics in I believe 1996.
` Q. So you became a subsidiary of Hyundai
`Electronics?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And was Hyundai Electronics in the
`business of building set top boxes?
` A. As a matter of fact, they were. And
`that was part of the motivation for them acquiring
`TV/COM.
` They had started a group in the San Jose area
`focused on development of set top boxes. Well,
`TV/COM down in San Diego, where I was, was more of
`an end to end company. In those days the concept --
`well, TV was -- was well on its way to transitioning
`from analog to digital, such as MPEG-2 based
`products. But it was still in its infancy. And the
`st
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