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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`CALLIDUS SOFTWARE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`
` vs.
`VERSATA DEVELOPMENT GROUP, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`----------------------------------
`
`Case Nos.
`CBM2013-00052
`CBM2013-00053
`CBM2013-00054
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOSEPH E. DEHAVEN
`Palo Alto, California
`Tuesday, May 20, 2014
`
`REPORTED BY:
`CYNTHIA MANNING, CSR No. 7645, CLR, CCRR
`JOB NO. 80222
`
`Versata Exh. 2013
`Callidus v. Versata
`CBM2013-00052
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`CALLIDUS SOFTWARE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`
` vs.
`VERSATA DEVELOPMENT GROUP, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`----------------------------------
`
`Case Nos.
`CBM2013-00052
`CBM2013-00053
`CBM2013-00054
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOSEPH E. DEHAVEN
`Palo Alto, California
`Tuesday, May 20, 2014
`
`REPORTED BY:
`CYNTHIA MANNING, CSR No. 7645, CLR, CCRR
`JOB NO. 80222
`
`Versata Exh. 2013
`Callidus v. Versata
`CBM2013-00052
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 2
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` May 20, 2014
` 9:08 a.m.
`
`Videotaped deposition of JOSEPH E. DEHAVEN,
`held at Dickstein Shapiro LLP, 1841 Page
`Mill Road, Suite 150, Palo Alto,
`California, before Cynthia Manning,
`Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 7645,
`Certified LiveNote Reporter, California
`Certified Realtime Reporter.
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`FOR PETITIONER:
` DICKSTEIN SHAPIRO
` BY: ASSAD RAJANI, ESQ.
` DEBORAH FISHMAN, ESQ.
` 1841 Page Mill Road
` Palo Alto, CA 94304
`
`FOR PATENT HOLDER:
` HAYNES and BOONE
` BY: JOHN EMERSON, ESQ.
` RAGHAV BAJAJ, ESQ.
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Dallas, TX 75219
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Alexi Dias, Videographer
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` PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA;
` TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2014; 9:08 A.M.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
` This is the beginning of Disc Number 1 of
`the videotaped deposition of Mr. Joseph DeHaven, in
`the matter Callidus Software, Inc., versus Versata
`Development Group, Inc., in the United States Patent
`and Trademark Office, before the Patent Trial and
`Appeal Board. Case Number CBM2013-00053.
` This deposition is being held at 1841 Page
`Mill Road, Suite 150, Palo Alto, California, on May
`20th, 2014 at 9:09 a.m.
` My name is Alexi Dias from TSG Reporting,
`Inc., and our court reporter today is Cynthia
`Manning.
` Counsel, you will please introduce
`yourselves?
` MR. RAJANI: Assad Rajani on behalf of Joe
`DeHaven, and with me today is Deborah Fishman of
`Dickstein Shapiro.
` MR. EMERSON: Russ Emerson for Versata.
` MR. BAJAJ: Raghav Bajaj for Versata.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
` Will the court reporter, please swear in
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`the witness?
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`Page 5
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` JOSEPH E. DEHAVEN,
` having first been duly sworn, testified as
` follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Good morning, sir.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Have you been deposed before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How many times?
` A. I believe three.
` Q. Okay. When was the last time you were
`deposed?
` A. I believe 25 years ago.
` Q. Oh, really?
` A. So it's been a long time.
` Q. In what context were you deposed before?
` A. As a witness for Prudential.
` Q. Okay.
` A. In the workers' compensation area.
` Q. Your attorneys probably went over all this
`with you. We'll try not to talk over each other.
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` Okay?
` A. That's fine.
` Q. Audible answers?
` A. Yes.
` Q. No head nods or uh-huhs or huh-uhs, that
`sort of thing?
` A. Loud nods work.
` Q. There you go.
` If don't understand my question, please let
`me know and I can rephrase it for you.
` A. Will do.
` Q. Don't expect this should take too terribly
`long.
` MR. EMERSON: Oh. Let's make the record
`clear, this is in three separate CBMs: CBM2013,
`-52, -53 and -54. Right?
` MR. RAJANI: Correct.
` MR. EMERSON: And you have submitted the
`same Declaration in each deposition; right?
` MR. RAJANI: For each petition.
` MR. EMERSON: I'm sorry, for each petition
`we have a differently styled Declaration, but
`it's --
` MR. RAJANI: They are verbatim.
` MR. EMERSON: -- the same. Yes. All
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`right.
` So why don't we just -- I'll give you
`what's been marked Exhibit 1004 in the 2013-52 CBM.
` Okay?
` MR. RAJANI: Yeah.
` (Callidus Exhibit 1004 was marked for
` identification)
` MR. EMERSON: So this is premarked. This
`is for you. This is for you.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. All right. So you recognize this
`Declaration, I take it?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what we're going to do today,
`effectively, is march through it and I'm going to
`ask you some questions about the various things that
`you've said in the Declaration.
` All right?
` A. That's fine.
` Q. So appropriately enough, we'll start with
`paragraph 1. It says that you're a senior principal
`consultant in the Customer Solutions group at
`Callidus.
` What -- what do you do as a senior
`principal consultant?
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` A. I implement TrueComp by configuring the
`software through the services group.
` Q. What's TrueComp?
` A. TrueComp is my company's product dealing
`with compensation.
` Q. And what does TrueComp do exactly?
` A. Calculates commissions and --
` MR. RAJANI: Objection; outside the scope.
` THE WITNESS: Calculates commissions and
`bonuses as configured.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Is it a software program?
` A. It is a software program.
` Q. And who do y'all typically -- who are your
`typical customers?
` MR. RAJANI: Objection; outside the scope.
` THE WITNESS: We have a number of
`customers.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Are they --
` A. All industries, all sizes.
` Q. Is it mainly for calculating commissions?
` MR. RAJANI: Objection; scope.
` THE WITNESS: We calculate commissions,
`bonuses, fees, various types of sales compensation.
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`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Is it -- is it customized for each
`customer?
` MR. RAJANI: Objection; scope.
` THE WITNESS: It is. Is TrueComp
`customized?
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Yeah.
` A. TrueComp itself is not customized, no.
`It's configured.
` Q. You configure it for each customer?
` A. Generally, yes.
` Q. Okay. So what do you mean when you say
`"configuring" -- "configuring the software"?
` A. What do I mean? I mean writing rules.
` Q. What does that mean exactly, "writing
`rules"?
` A. Well, the software is broken into different
`phases that include the credit, the accumulation of
`credits, calculation of incentives, and deposits and
`pay. And I write rules to -- to configure the
`software to do those things as required.
` Q. So when you say that you "write rules," are
`you -- are you a programmer?
` A. No, I'm not.
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` Q. You effectively tell the programmers what
`they need to do?
` A. No, I don't.
` Q. Okay. Tell me what do you mean when you
`say that you "write rules."
` A. Rules are the way TrueComp is configured.
`For example, if I write a credit, I would look at a
`transaction, take various elements on a transaction,
`and with certain logic decide whether or not I
`create a credit. If I create the credit, it's done
`so through a rule.
` Q. Okay. What form do these rules take?
` MR. RAJANI: Objection; scope.
` THE WITNESS: What form? I'm not sure I
`understand the question.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Who do you provide the rules to?
` A. I write the rules and leave them -- they're
`part of the software. Again, depends on the nature
`of the engagement, whether it's on-premise or -- or
`software as a service, on-demand. On-premise, on
`demand.
` Q. When you write the rules, who do you give
`them to?
` A. I don't give them to anyone.
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` Q. How do the rules become incorporated into
`the product?
` MR. RAJANI: Objection; scope.
` THE WITNESS: I write them within the
`product and they stay there.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. So you're actually going into the code and
`implementing or putting the rules into the code for
`the product?
` A. I don't touch code.
` MR. RAJANI: Mischaracterizes testimony.
` THE WITNESS: I don't touch product code.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. I'm just trying to get the background here.
`I'm really not trying to trick you or anything. I
`just want to understand what exactly it is that you
`do.
` What do you mean when you say you write the
`rules and they are part of the software?
` MR. RAJANI: Objection; scope.
` THE WITNESS: The software contains a rules
`engine.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. How do the rules get from you to the
`software?
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` A. I configure the rules within the software,
`through a GUI. That's the primary way. There are
`other ways to get rules in.
` Q. Do you do this at the client site?
` A. Can do it at the client site, can do it
`remotely.
` Q. And when you do it, you're doing it on a
`particular version of the Callidus product for that
`client; is that right?
` A. Not necessarily for that client, but on a
`particular version of the Callidus product, yes.
` Q. Okay. In paragraph 3, you say you're a
`salaried Callidus employee.
` Do you have any ownership interest in
`Callidus?
` A. Ownership interest, no. I have no
`ownership interest currently.
` Q. Do you expect to?
` A. A small amount of stock in the future, yes.
` Q. Is that part of your comp? Do you have
`stock options or something like that?
` A. I have some restricted stock grants that
`vest over time, but --
` Q. But none of them have vested yet?
` A. These are not vested, no.
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` Q. So you don't own any stock in Callidus?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever owned stock in Callidus?
` A. I have.
` Q. And when do you expect to acquire more
`stock in Callidus?
` A. At the beginning of next quarter.
` Q. Is this something that just regularly
`happens?
` A. Regular vesting, yes.
` Q. In paragraph 4, you note that you reviewed
`the three patents that are at issue in these CBMs.
` Can you tell me exactly what did you
`review?
` A. Three documents that had these numbers on
`them.
` Q. And how much time did you spend on them?
` A. Not a lot. Maybe two hours, two and a half
`hours total.
` Q. What were you looking at, in particular?
` A. Just to familiarize myself with what they
`said, that's all.
` Q. And it's not your intention to opine on the
`validity of these patents, is it?
` A. I can't give you an opinion one way or the
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`other on the validity of the patents.
` Q. In paragraph 6, you talk about -- starting
`to talk about your career here going back to go The
`Prudential.
` It says that your first assignment or your
`initial assignment was to learn the legacy IBM 705
`and IBM 1401 policy administration systems.
` What were those?
` A. Very, very old IBM systems.
` Q. These were computers?
` A. Computer systems.
` Q. Okay. And what did they do?
` A. They performed policy admin functions to a
`certain level. The 705 was primarily a premium
`acceptance machine. It received and recorded
`premium payments, for the most part. It was a very
`early policy admin system.
` Q. And could you describe for me, just
`generally, what a policy admin system is?
` A. A policy admin system is a system that
`administers, in this case, ordinary life policies,
`and it routinely receives premium payments, records
`them, records next due premium, keeps track of --
`within certain modules again, dividends and loans.
` Q. So it would record I guess when a policy
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`went into effect?
` A. It would have the policy date, yes, the
`issue date, the policy date.
` Q. When payments were made?
` A. It would record the date each payment was
`made and link back to the prior payment.
` Q. Premium changes?
` A. Premium change, either contractual premium
`change, which would have been done manually back
`then, or mode changes. Again, they were completed
`manually, outside the system.
` My very first job was mode change clerk, to
`change from monthly to quarterly or semiannual or
`annual, and calculate the premium and tell the
`system what the amount of premium was. This was a
`very early policy admin system.
` Q. Did -- did these systems calculate
`compensation or commissions or anything like that?
` MR. RAJANI: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I would have to say no, not
`at that time.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Did they ever?
` A. Did they ever? You mean did the policy
`admin system ever calculate commission?
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` Q. I guess what I'm trying to find out is what
`do you mean by "at that time."
` So did these systems, the IBM 705 and 1401
`--
` A. The 705 and 1401, right -- the 705 was the
`size of a city block and I believe it had about 4K
`of RAM, okay. It didn't do much.
` Q. Yeah.
` A. 37,000 vacuum tubes were changed once a
`month faithfully. It was a monster --
` Q. Yeah.
` A. -- but it didn't do much.
` So did it have a lot of advanced functions,
`like calculate commissions, things like that, no.
` And this was when I started with the
`company, okay. So we're stalking about the years
`1970. It's prior to the introduction of the IBM
`System 360, which pretty much revolutionized
`computers back then.
` 1401 had to be wired. And when I say
`"wired," they physically had boards and wires and
`they plugged wires from one hole to the next.
`Somebody spent a day configuring the board and then
`it would be set up to use for a function. We're
`talking very early computer.
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` Q. Right.
` A. Now, they were rapidly replaced by better
`computers at Prudential over the years and by more
`advanced computer systems.
` Q. And did these more advanced computer
`systems ever calculate commissions and compensation?
` A. They would calculate commission, yes. I'm
`talking, in particular, about the AOS policy system
`which had a commission module which would calculate
`the commission and -- for the number of reps
`involved, the percent splits, and so on. It never
`paid it. It only calculated and authorized a
`commission to the commission unit.
` Q. And can you describe how that system
`authorized commissions?
` A. All electronic. It was file transfer. It
`was a commission output file that would go to the
`commission system. This would be later on.
` Q. When did the AOS system --
` A. AOS started in the early '70s.
` Q. Is that the name of the computer system?
` A. Yes. It was the Advanced Ordinary System
`at Prudential and it was the one that I was sent to
`Newark to train to bring back to the central
`Atlantic home office.
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` Q. Who made that computer?
` A. Well, the computer itself was an IBM
`computer, but the system was written in-house.
` Q. So in order to calculate commissions, do
`you know what steps the AOS system went through to
`do that?
` A. I was never part of the commission
`function, but I know that when the commission module
`would receive the payment, it would apply the
`appropriate rate from the schedule based on
`information it had and calculate the first year of
`the renewal or service commissions.
` Q. So there was a rate schedule stored in the
`computer?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then that -- then the computer would
`select the proper rate to apply to the premium?
` A. However it did that, yes. Yeah.
` Q. And then that was assigned to a particular
`agent or salesman?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Other than -- back on the IBM 705 and 1401,
`other than administering loans, accepting premium
`payments, processing premium changes, and
`distributing dividends, was there anything else that
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`the systems did?
` A. Honestly, I don't know whether the new
`business function was a part of it or whether that
`was a separate system at the time. And I don't know
`whether claims was a part of it at the time.
` Q. What's the "new business function"?
` A. New business is typically where you
`interface with an underwriting area to underwrite
`the policy prior to its issue. Certainly, AOS
`maintained all in-force policies, but a front-end
`new business system could have existed to -- for
`underwriting specifically.
` Q. Let's back up a little bit. How did you
`end up going to work for The Prudential?
` A. How I did end up going to work for Pru?
` Q. Was this your first job out of school?
` A. No, it would have been my second job out of
`school. My parents knew the personnel manager
`pretty well and said, "Give the personnel manager a
`call." So I did. He invited me to take a test. I
`took the test, and then he offered me one of three
`positions.
` Q. Okay. Let's go to paragraph 10. So here
`we -- well, you say that you became a compensation
`system analyst.
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` What does that mean?
` A. It's a title.
` Q. I know. What does it mean?
` A. What does it mean? It means that I was
`promoted from an associate manager to a rank below
`manager in a, basically, specialized position for
`someone that dealt with computers. And my job role,
`because I took business requirements and would go to
`talk to the systems unit in Roseland about those
`business requirements, was really an interface
`between the corporate user, which I represented, and
`the systems unit in Roseland, New Jersey.
` Q. What are -- what do you mean by
`"compensation systems"?
` A. Okay. In '84 -- I'm sorry, in '82. I
`can't read. In '82, these consisted of two systems,
`OACCS, OAMCS, which paid both agents and managers
`commissions at that time.
` Q. Can I back you up --
` A. Sure.
` Q. -- a second?
` I'm, I guess, trying to go to a deeper
`level or a more basic or fundamental level.
` When you say "compensation systems," are
`you referring to a computer system?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So this was a particular computer
`system that was used for calculating --
` A. There were two primary systems in 1982.
` Q. And they were used for calculating
`compensation?
` A. They were used for calculating compensation
`for Ordinary Agencies within Prudential's field
`force.
` Q. What do you mean by "Ordinary Agencies"?
` A. Well, we had two individual life sales
`units. The first was called Ordinary Agencies,
`which is where I worked. The other was called
`District Agencies, and was a larger sales force and
`consisted of people that collected premiums
`primarily from their debit, which was a small
`geographic unit. I did not work in District
`Agencies.
` So they had two, if you will, competing
`field forces selling individual life policies.
`Ordinary Agencies sold the larger policies with more
`geographic freedom than the District Agencies had
`because the district was tied to their debit, if you
`will.
` Q. I believe that you -- did you use the
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`acronym "OCS" before?
` A. OCS. No.
` MR. RAJANI: Objection. I used the acronym
`OACCS.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. OACCS?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what's that?
` A. That was an agent commission system.
` Q. Okay.
` A. It was an early agent commission system.
` Q. So that was a computer system that would
`calculate commissions for the agents?
` A. For agents, yes.
` Q. And it did it, basically, in the same way
`we discussed before; there would be policy premiums
`paid in, that data went into the computer?
` A. It went into -- it was received from policy
`admin systems, right. Prudential had many types of
`policies, and each of the different policy admin
`areas would send authorizations to -- commission
`transaction authorizations to the compensation
`unit -- at the compensation system, I should say.
` Q. And the compensation system, again, had --
` A. It would receive those, process them, and
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`create agent pay statements.
` Q. By selecting an appropriate rate from a
`stored rate schedule?
` A. Again, it depended on the system. If it
`was calculated by the system and passed as a
`commission, then it didn't have to calculate. Then
`it just received it and posted it. If -- if the
`authorizing system was only notifying us of a
`premium and, like, the type of insurance, then we
`would look up the rate and apply the rate within the
`system, or the system would look up the rate and
`apply it.
` So it was split. In some cases, it was
`done by the policy admin system. In other cases, it
`was done by the commission system.
` Q. So sometimes the policy admin system would
`calculate the commission and send that commission
`data to the compensation system?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And in some cases, the policy
`administration system would send premium information
`to the compensation --
` A. Right.
` Q. -- system and then the calculation system
`would calculate --
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` A. Correct.
` MR. RAJANI: Objection to form.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. OCMCS?
` A. OAMCS.
` Q. Oh, sorry. What's that?
` A. That's okay. Ordinary Agencies Management
`Comp System.
` Q. And that's to determine the compensation
`for the agents' managers?
` A. For the agency management, which would be
`two levels, yes.
` Q. What do you mean by "two levels"?
` A. There is a first-level manager and then
`their supervise or manager, which would be the
`agency manager.
` Q. So each --
` A. So first is a unit, next is an agency,
`which is above that.
` Q. So an agency will have multiple units?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And a unit will have multiple agents?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And the unit manager gets a cut of each of
`his or her agents' commissions?
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` A. Correct.
` Q. And the agency manager will get a cut of
`each of his unit managers' commissions?
` A. Either unit manager or agent, depending on
`how it is structured.
` Q. Same paragraph, you note that you helped
`design compensation components, including plan
`pricing.
` Were there any other compensation
`components beyond plan pricing?
` A. Well, pricing was something we had to do to
`assure the actuarial department that we had
`considered in our assumptions what the ultimate
`price would be before making a change.
` Q. Making a change to what?
` A. Making a change to a pay component, for
`example. So if -- if we were changing rates from,
`say, 10 percent, 30 percent, which is what one plan
`would pay, we could, for example, come up with
`multiple breakdowns. Say we're going to pay a flat
`15, find out that we actually had some additional
`money and we were going to pay that additional money
`in the form of a different bonus. Well, the pricing
`would involve where were you spending the money and
`where did you plan to spend the money in the future,
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`given the same or modified performance assumptions.
` So pricing had to do with estimating the
`cost of changes and then systems implementation had
`to do with addressing the systems unit to program
`those changes into the computer.
` Q. So are we talking about pricing insurance
`policies?
` A. No. We're talking about the price of the
`compensation.
` Q. The price of the compensation?
` A. If I sold X amount of insurance, how much
`would I be spending for certain pay components.
` Q. Okay.
` A. So it's component-by-component pricing.
`Some plans are different than just straight
`commission.
` Q. What are some of the different components
`that go into the compensation?
` A. One of them at Prudential was a thing
`called the "quality incentive payment."
` Q. What was that?
` A. It basically took what was a 12 percent
`second to fourth renewal and then a 3 percent fifth
`to tenth renewal -- or it took the twelve, second to
`fourth and changed it to 10, and then paid it out in
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`the form of as much as -- oh, I believe it was 10
`percent -- additional 10 percent second year, 6
`percent third year, 3 percent fourth year, based on
`your persistency and production -- current
`persistency and production in the year of sale.
` Q. Okay. What form did these components take?
`Were they written down somewhere, in a policy
`manual?
` A. They were -- well, this being an agent
`component, would have been written up for the agent,
`and it would have been introduced along with a
`revised contract when we did that.
` Q. Contract with the agent?
` A. Contract with the agent, yes.
` Q. And was this done individually for each
`agent?
` A. Each agent would have their own individual
`contract, but it would not be a -- a unique -- it
`was the same contract, just their name was written
`on the contract and each one would be asked to sign.
` Q. So somewhere you had --
` A. We maintained files of all the contracts,
`yes, within the field administration units.
` Q. But the pricing components that went into
`those contracts, those were kept in a separate,
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`centralized place?
` A. The corporate -- I transferred -- as I said
`in there earlier, in point 9, I transferred to the
`corporate office in 1977, and among the different
`functions that I had to perform was -- included the
`pricing and, over time, the liaison to the systems
`group to make compensation changes within -- within
`the Prudential computer systems.
` Q. And how did these pricing components get
`into the compensation systems?
` A. Pricing was first. We first went through
`and priced components and then made a decision which
`components we liked or which alternatives we liked,
`if you will, and then came up with a revised plan,
`and then that revised plan we would work with --
`once it was approved internally, we would then work
`with the systems unit to see that it was programmed.
` But first, we would go through several
`candidate plans and several alternatives to come up
`with: Well, here's the price if I do it this way,
`and if I change the administrative rules around a
`little bit, here's the price, and so on and so
`forth.
` Q. Back up a second.
` A minute ago we were talking about
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`commissions for managers.
` A. We were talking about -- we -- at OAMCS, we
`were talking about commissions for managers, yes.
` Q. Later in your Declaration, you talk about
`override commissions?
` A. I do talk about override commissions.
` Q. Is that the same sort of thing?
` A. The quality incentive payment was an agent
`payment and it dealt with production and
`persistency, so it's a production-persistency bonus
`for agents.
` Q. What's "persistency"?
` A. Persistency is business that does not
`lapse.
` Q. Meaning getting people to re-up their life
`insurance policies?
` A. Continue to pay for it and for a certain
`duration. Okay. There are different types out
`there. We, in particular, were looking at a
`24-month lapse rate. So we were looking for
`policies to pay their first full 24 months.
` Q. And production is getting new --
` A. Production is new business.
` Q. And persistency is keeping the current
`business?
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` A. Keeping business on the books. If
`everything you write stays on the books, you have
`100 persistency.
` Q. Is a manager's commission generally known
`as an override commission or is that a special kind
`of commission?
` A. Many of their pay is known as override
`commissions, yes, most of it.
` Q. So when we're talking about a manager's
`commission that he gets based on his subordinates'
`--
` A. Production of their subordinates is one of
`the primary pay components, yes.
` Q. And that's what we call an "override
`commission"?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You say that you were "responsible for
`conveying the details of new or modified
`compensation plans and/or compensation component
`changes to the Compensation Systems Programming
`Area."
` What's the "Compensation Systems
`Programming Area"?
` A. It's exactly that. It's a unit that
`existed in Roseland, New Jersey while I was there,
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`that was responsible for maintaining the actual --
`the system of programs used to pay Ordinary Agencies
`field people, whether it be agency or management.
` Q. It was a group of programmers that worked
`for Prudential?
` A. It was a group of programmers that
`maintained a set of programs for Ordinary Agencies'
`field force.
` Q. Then it says that you "negotiate delivery
`timelines."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What -- what are delivery timelines,
`delivery of what?
` A. We had within -- when we dealt with
`Roseland and our systems unit, we had a set number
`of person days that were available to us each
`quarter with which they could make changes to the
`different programs.
` Q. Are you talking about delivery of
`programming changes?
` A. Delivery of programming changes. So, for
`example, if we outlined a comp plan that was very
`big, it might take four quarters for them to
`complete the programming and testing of that.
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` Q. Because they only had so many days per
`quarter?
` A. Because they only had so many days per
`quarter that they could devote to discretionary
`changes.
` Q. Next sentence:
` "Additionally, I ensured that any unit
` tests performed met the requirements of our
` new modified plans and/or component
` changes."
` These are tests of the compensation
`systems; correct?
` A. Yes. These are tests -- the unit test was
`performed, then I would review the unit text results
`to see that what they got in
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