SIGHTSOUND TECHNOLOGIES, LLC
`EXHIBIT 2174
`CBM2013-00020 (APPLE v. SIGHTSOUND)
`PAGE 000001
`
`In The Matter Of:
`
`APPLE, INC.
`v.
` SIGHTSOUND TECHNOLOGIES, LLC
`
` ___________________________________________________
`
`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - Vol. 1
`April 2, 2014
`
` ___________________________________________________
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`EXHIBIT 2174
`CBM2013-00020 (APPLE v. SIGHTSOUND)
`PAGE 000001
`
`In The Matter Of:
`
`APPLE, INC.
`v.
` SIGHTSOUND TECHNOLOGIES, LLC
`
` ___________________________________________________
`
`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - Vol. 1
`April 2, 2014
`
` ___________________________________________________
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`PAGE 000002
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` --o0o--
`
`APPLE INC., )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. ) NO. CBM2013-00020
` ) CBM2013-00023
`SIGHTSOUND TECHNOLOGIES, LLC, )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`___________________________________)
`
` DEPOSITION OF
`
` LAWRENCE KENSWIL
`
` ------------------------------------
`
` Wednesday, April 2, 2014
`
` Volume I
`
` (Pages 1 - 175)
`
`REPORTED BY: MEGAN F. ALVAREZ, RPR, CSR 12470
`
`(SF-001615)
`
`
`
`PAGE 000003
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
`
`Page 2
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` I N D E X
`
` INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS
`
`EXAMINATION BY MS. SKLENAR ........................6
`
`EXAMINATION BY MS. FUKUDA .......................157
`
`EXAMINATION BY MS. SKLENAR ......................164
`
` --o0o--
`
` EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION
`
`No. Description Page
`
`Exhibit 1 Declaration of Lawrence Kenswil ......6
` in case CBM2013-00020
`
`Exhibit 2 Declaration of Lawrence Kenswil ......6
` in case CBM2013-00023
`
`Exhibit 3 Petitioner's Reply, Case ............36
` CBM2013-0020
`
`Exhibit 4 U.S. Patent 5,191,573 ..............43
`
`Exhibit 5 U.S. Patent 5,966,440 ..............44
`
`Exhibit 6 Press release entitled "Apple .......70
` Launches the iTunes Music Store"
`
`Exhibit 7 Press release entitled "iTunes ......72
` Music Store Hits 5 Million
` Downloads," dated 6/23/03
`
`Exhibit 8 Chapter from "The Perfect Thing: ....79
` How the iPod Shuffles Commerce,
` Culture, and Coolness," by
` Steven Levy, 2006
`
`Exhibit 9 Variety article from 11/3/10 .......81
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`PAGE 000004
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 3
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` EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION
`
`No. Description Page
`
`Exhibit 10 Transcript of prepared testimony ....86
` of Lawrence Kenswil before the
` Copyright Royalty Board, Library
` of Congress
`
`Exhibit 11 Article entitled "RealNetworks ......96
` Breaks Apple's Hold On iPod"
`
`Exhibit 12 Article entitled "RealNetworks ......97
` to Apple: Our music will run on
` your player now."
`
`Exhibit 13 Article entitled "Thoughts on .......99
` Music," by Steve Jobs, dated
` 2/6/07
`
`Exhibit 14 Press release entitled "Changes ....102
` Coming to the iTunes Store,"
` dated 1/6/09
`
`Exhibit 15 Press release entitled "Apple ......128
` Announces iTunes 8," dated
` 9/9/08
`
`Exhibit 16 Declaration of John Snell .........138
`
`Exhibit 17 Virtual Records document ...........151
` entitled "Two Year Expansion
` Plan"
`
`Exhibit 18 Private Placement Memorandum .......156
` dated 4/27/99
`
` --o0o--
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`PAGE 000005
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 4
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` BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, pursuant to Notice, and
`
`on Wednesday, April 2, 2014, commencing at Ropes & Gray,
`
`1900 University Avenue, 6th Floor, East Palo Alto,
`
`California, before me, Megan F. Alvarez, a Certified
`
`Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter,
`
`personally appeared
`
` LAWRENCE KENSWIL
`
` ____________________________
`
`a witness in the above-entitled court case, called by
`
`the Patent Owner, who, having been first duly sworn, was
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`examined and testified in said cause.
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`PAGE 000006
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
`
`Page 5
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` APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL
`
`FOR PETITIONER:
`
` ROPES & GRAY LLP
` BY: CHING-LEE FUKUDA, ESQ.
` 1211 AVENUE OF THE AMERICAS
` NEW YORK, NY 10036-8704
` 212.596.9336
` CHING-LEE.FUKUDA@ROPESGRAY.COM
`
`FOR PATENT OWNER:
`
` ARNOLD & PORTER LLP
` BY: JENNIFER A. SKLENAR, Esq.
` 44TH FLOOR
` 777 SOUTH FIGUEROA STREET
` LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90017-5844
` 213.243.4027
` JENNIFER.SKLENAR@APORTER.COM
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`PAGE 000007
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
`
`Page 6
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` WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2, 2014, 9:09 A.M.
`
` LAWRENCE KENSWIL,
`
` having been first duly sworn, was examined and
`
` testified as follows:
`
` (Whereupon Exhibits 1 and 2 were marked
`
` for identification.)
`
` --o0o--
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MS. SKLENAR:
`
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Kenswil.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. Am I pronouncing your name correctly?
`
` A. That's perfect.
`
` Q. My name is Jennifer Sklenar. I'm here on
`
`behalf of SightSound, and I wanted to ask you some
`
`questions about your declarations.
`
` First of all, could you state your full name
`
`for the record?
`
` A. Lawrence Kenswil.
`
` Q. And could you spell your last name?
`
` A. K-E-N-S-W-I-L.
`
` Q. Have you ever gone by any other names?
`
` A. No.
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`PAGE 000008
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 7
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` Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. How many times?
`
` A. Many.
`
` Q. Could you give me an estimate of how many
`
`times?
`
` A. Probably 20, 25.
`
` Q. Can you generally describe the nature of the
`
`cases in which you were deposed previously?
`
` A. During my career at Universal, I was often
`
`designated as the witness for certain subjects in
`
`litigation, whether it was plaintiffs or defendants. I
`
`was usually testifying on music contracts more than any
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`other subject.
`
` Q. Did you give any prior testimony that relates
`
`to the issues covered in your declarations that you
`
`submitted?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Did you ever testify in any proceedings other
`
`than depositions?
`
` A. I -- trial witness.
`
` Q. And how many times were you a trial witness?
`
` A. I'd say three or five.
`
` Q. And what was the general nature of the cases
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`in which you were a trial witness?
`
`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000009
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 8
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` A. Usually they were music contract litigation.
`
` Q. Were you ever giving trial testimony on any
`
`issues that relate to the subject matter of your
`
`declarations?
`
` MS. FUKUDA: I'm going to object to form to
`
`the question.
`
` You can answer.
`
` THE WITNESS: There were not about patents.
`
`They may have peripherally related to online music
`
`business.
`
`BY MS. SKLENAR:
`
` Q. In what way did your prior testimony relate to
`
`the online music business?
`
` A. The -- I don't know in my mind which were
`
`depositions and which were trial testimony. But
`
`certainly the history of Universal's business dealings
`
`online would come up in several of these litigations.
`
` Q. Do you recall any other aspects in which you
`
`gave previous testimony that related to the online music
`
`business?
`
` A. I know there was one case in -- specifically
`
`don't remember the actual name of the plaintiff, but
`
`it's often referred to as the Eminem, E-M-I-N-E-M, case,
`
`the rapper, which dealt with the royalties payable to
`
`contracting parties on digital sales. And I believe I
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`PAGE 000010
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
`
`Page 9
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`testified in court on that case.
`
` Q. Any other testimony that comes to mind that
`
`related to the online music industry?
`
` A. Not in court that I remember, no.
`
` Q. Was there any other testimony outside of court
`
`that you've given that related to the online music
`
`industry?
`
` A. Well, there's been depositions that -- I can't
`
`remember specifically any that were directly related to
`
`online sales.
`
` Q. Have you ever been a party yourself to any
`
`legal proceeding?
`
` A. I may have been named personally once in a
`
`case against Universal.
`
` Q. And what case was that?
`
` A. It was a case brought by a man named
`
`Gary Kurfirst, K-U-R-F-I-R-S-T, who named several
`
`executives and the company. I believe we had the case
`
`dismissed against the individuals, but I don't remember
`
`specifically what happened with it.
`
` Q. And what was the general nature of that case?
`
` A. It was a contract dispute.
`
` Q. In what regard?
`
` A. He was a -- he had label that I had done a lot
`
`of legal work on that was distributed by Universal
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`PAGE 000011
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
`
`Page 10
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`Music. I don't remember the exact nature of the case.
`
`They usually are about the amount of money owed on the
`
`contract.
`
` Q. You are here today as an expert witness for
`
`Apple; is that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Have you ever served as an expert witness
`
`before?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. And I've already used the term "your
`
`declarations." You submitted two declarations in two
`
`different proceedings; is that correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. And they're -- the declarations are identical;
`
`is that right?
`
` A. Virtually. They refer to different patents,
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`but otherwise they're the same.
`
` Q. So if I refer to "your declarations," will you
`
`understand that I'm referring to the declarations you
`
`submitted in the CBM proceedings between Apple and
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`SightSound?
`
` A. That's fine.
`
` Q. Now, it sounds like you've been deposed a fair
`
`number of times. So just to go over the depo process,
`
`obviously the court reporter is taking down your
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`PAGE 000012
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
`
`Page 11
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`testimony and it would be extremely helpful to her, I'm
`
`sure, if we try very hard not to speak over each other.
`
` And so I will do my best to let you finish
`
`your answer before I ask the next question. I would
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`also ask you to try to wait to let me get the full
`
`question out before you proceed to answer.
`
` Is that okay?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And if I ask you any questions that you
`
`don't understand -- and that could happen -- I would ask
`
`that you let me know and ask me to clarify it so we have
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`a clear record.
`
` Is that okay?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And you understand you're under oath here
`
`today as you would be in a court of law?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And you're under penalty of perjury.
`
` Do you understand that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And you -- I'm sure you're aware that
`
`sometimes your attorneys will be -- your attorney will
`
`be making objections. And so long as you're not
`
`instructed not to answer, you understand you should go
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`PAGE 000013
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
`
`Page 12
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. What, if anything, did you do to
`
`prepare to testify here today?
`
` A. I reviewed my declarations and the exhibits to
`
`my declaration.
`
` Q. When did you do that?
`
` A. Yesterday and this morning.
`
` Q. Did you do anything else to prepare for your
`
`deposition?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Did you meet with counsel?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. When did you do that?
`
` A. Yesterday.
`
` Q. For how long?
`
` A. About four hours.
`
` Q. With whom did you meet?
`
` A. Ching-Lee.
`
` Q. Did you meet with anyone else?
`
` A. I met with Jim...
`
` Q. Batchelder?
`
` A. Batchelder. I'm bad at names.
`
` Q. No problem.
`
` Did you meet with anyone else?
`
` A. No.
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`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000014
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 13
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` Q. You say you reviewed your declarations and the
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`exhibits that were cited?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What specific exhibits do you recall
`
`reviewing?
`
` A. I recall reviewing the proposed SightSound
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`business plan and various prospectuses where they were
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`seeking investment funding.
`
` Q. Do you recall reviewing any other exhibits?
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` A. No.
`
` Q. So is it fair to say that in preparation for
`
`your deposition today, the only documents you reviewed
`
`were SightSound documents?
`
` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: There may have been some
`
`articles. I don't remember if I cross-checked the
`
`quotes in my deposition with the actual articles, but I
`
`may have glanced articles that were also exhibits.
`
`BY MS. SKLENAR:
`
` Q. Sitting here today, the only exhibits you're
`
`certain of that you reviewed in preparation for your
`
`deposition were the SightSound documents?
`
` A. That's correct.
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` Q. When you say you may have reviewed some
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`articles, are there specific articles that you think you
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 14
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`might have reviewed but you're not certain?
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` A. Well, there were various quotes in my
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`declarations to publications. And I may have looked at
`
`some of those publications, but I don't recall whether I
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`did.
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` Q. Were you shown any documents, other than the
`
`ones that you've mentioned, that refreshed your
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`recollection as to any events?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Did you discuss your deposition with anyone,
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`other than your attorney here today and Mr. Batchelder?
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` A. No.
`
` Q. Now, you were also retained by Apple as an
`
`expert in the district court litigation; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. And you submitted some reports for Apple in
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`those proceedings?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Did you review those reports in preparation
`
`for your deposition here today?
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` A. No.
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` Q. When's the last time you reviewed those
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`reports?
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` A. Before the case was stayed was the last time.
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 15
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` Q. Did you review those reports in any way in
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`preparing your declarations that were submitted for the
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`purposes of the CBM proceedings?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Are you taking any medication or any alcohol
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`that would -- or any other substances that would affect
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`your ability to testify truthfully here today?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Do you have any mental or physical illness
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`that would affect your ability to testify truthfully?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Is there anything that you could think of that
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`might impair your memory or your ability to testify
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`truthfully here today?
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` A. No.
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` Q. I am going to put in front of you what's
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`already been marked Kenswil Exhibits 1 and 2.
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` And Kenswil Exhibit 1 is the declaration of
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`Lawrence Kenswil that was submitted in the CBM
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`2013-00020 proceeding.
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And this is your declaration that was
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`submitted for purposes of that CBM proceeding that I
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`just read, correct?
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`PAGE 000017
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 16
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. And that's your signature at the end of the
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`document?
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` A. Yes, it is.
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` Q. And Kenswil Exhibit 2 is the declaration of
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`Lawrence Kenswil that was submitted in the CBM
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`2013-00023 proceeding?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And that's your signature at the end?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Who drafted your declarations?
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` MS. FUKUDA: Object to this line of
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`questioning. There's an agreement between the parties
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`here that there would be no discovery into the expert
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`report drafting process.
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` MS. SKLENAR: Mr. Batchelder asked Mr. Snell
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`the same questions. Are you instructing not to answer?
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` MS. FUKUDA: Can you give me one second here?
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` MS. SKLENAR: Yes.
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` (Off the record at 9:21 a.m. and back on
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` the record at 9:25 a.m.)
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`BY MS. SKLENAR:
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` Q. Mr. Kenswil, who drafted your declarations?
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` A. It was -- I would say the drafting itself was
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`a joint effort between me and the lawyers. They
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`
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`PAGE 000018
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 17
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`outlined the -- the initial.
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` MS. FUKUDA: And I'm just going to instruct
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`the witness to, you know, this is -- we have to be
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`careful here because there's an agreement that we
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`wouldn't get into expert draft reports. So I allow that
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`general question, but I don't want the details of what
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`sentence was drafted which way to come out during the
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`course of this line of questioning.
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`BY MS. SKLENAR:
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` Q. So you were given a general outline; is that
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`correct?
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` A. Yes, the points we covered and, you know,
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`which area of expertise that we're looking for
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`essentially.
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` Q. Did you -- in the course of reviewing your
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`declarations to prepare to testify here today, did you
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`come across any errors?
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` A. I saw a few typos and a misplaced heading,
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`which I probably ignored when I was doing the drafting.
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`The headings, I didn't do the headings, so I --
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` MS. FUKUDA: Again, I'm going to caution the
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`witness let's not talk about exactly what happened.
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` THE WITNESS: I did see typos.
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`BY MS. SKLENAR:
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` Q. Were there any typos of a substantive nature?
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
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`PAGE 000019
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 18
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` A. You know, the only one I remember off the top
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`of my head...
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` In paragraph 94 -- I just noticed this this
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`morning -- the next-to-the-last line is the word "it."
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`It should be the word "is."
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` Q. Is there anything else you noticed?
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` A. I'm not a very good proofreader, so I don't
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`recall seeing any.
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` Q. Anything else you noticed of a typographical
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`nature?
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` A. I know there was one yesterday that I saw that
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`the bold letterheading didn't refer to what came after
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`it. It was misplaced, but I don't remember which one it
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`was.
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` Q. Is there anything else about your declarations
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`that you would wish to correct?
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` A. No.
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` Q. How much time did you spend in the process of
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`preparing the declarations?
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` A. I'd have to look at my hourly sheets. I don't
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`remember.
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` Q. Could you give me an estimate?
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` A. Ten maybe. At the most.
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` Q. Ten hours?
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` A. I have to think about that.
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`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000020
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 19
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` Q. Does the ten hours include reviewing the
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`materials that were cited in your declaration?
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` A. Yes. Not counting yesterday, preparation for
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`the...
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` Q. Right. So prior to the time that you signed
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`the two declarations you spent approximately ten hours,
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`which would include the declarations themselves and the
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`review of the set of materials, correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. I'd like you to turn to paragraph 5 of your
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`declaration.
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` And that's under the heading "Qualifications,"
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`correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And in paragraph 5, you describe your
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`educational background?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Does paragraph 5 accurately state the totality
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`of your formal educational background?
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` A. It states my degrees, yes.
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` Q. Have you taken any course work other than
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`what's reflected in paragraph 5?
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` A. I think since then, probably only in
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`continuing education sources.
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` Q. And when you say "continuing education," do
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`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000021
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 20
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`you mean as a lawyer?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Do you have any other formal course work other
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`than what's reflected in paragraph 5?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Paragraph 5 states that you graduated in 1972
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`from Cornell University with a bachelor's of arts in
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`theater arts.
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Correct. Yes.
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` Q. While you were at Cornell, did you take any
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`courses of a technical nature?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What was that?
`
` A. Well, I started in the engineering school. So
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`my first year was all engineering courses.
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` Q. What engineering courses did you take?
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` A. Basic sciences, chemistry, physics -- you
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`know, math.
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` Q. And then it states that in 1977 you received a
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`master of science degree in communications from Boston
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`University.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. While you were at Boston University, did you
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`take any courses of a technical nature?
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`PAGE 000022
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 21
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` A. There may have been some courses that touched
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`on the technical nature of broadcasting, but I don't
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`recall specifically.
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` Q. You don't know one way or the other whether
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`you took any courses of a technical nature while at
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`Boston University?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. What types of things did you study as part of
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`your communications degree?
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` A. I was mainly studying broadcast regulation.
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` Q. Did you study anything else?
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` A. Well, there were other courses in TV
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`production, radio, but mainly on the regulation side.
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` Q. And if you would turn to paragraph 6,
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`paragraphs 6 through 18 describe your employment
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`history; is that correct?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. Do those paragraphs accurately summarize your
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`prior employment?
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` A. Yes, they do.
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` Q. So focusing on paragraph 7. You say you
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`worked from -- and I'm paraphrasing -- but from --
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`strike that.
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` Paragraph 7 states that you worked from 1983
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`to 1991 as a business and legal affairs attorney; is
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`(800) 869-9132
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000023
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 22
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`that correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What types of things did you do as a business
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`and legal affairs attorney?
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` A. The bulk of my time was negotiating and
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`drafting recording agreements. I also worked on music
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`publishing, concert touring agreements, merchandising,
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`and general corporate matters.
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` Q. Okay. And paragraph 8 states that in 1991 you
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`became executive vice president for business and legal
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`affairs and you were the chief legal officer of UMG
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`Global; is that correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. What types of things did you do in that
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`capacity?
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` A. All of the above that I mentioned before,
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`along with general counsel duties and supervising --
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`more supervising of other lawyers doing the same thing.
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` Q. And you held that position, executive vice
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`president for business and legal affairs, and the chief
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`legal officer position from 1991 until 1998; is that
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`correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Prior to the time that you left that position
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`in 1998, did you have any occasion to review business
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`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000024
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 23
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`prospectuses?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. How often would you say that you did that?
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` A. It was a regular part of my job when people
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`had business proposals for the company, I would review
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`their proposals.
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` Q. And did you have occasion to review private
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`placement memoranda?
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` A. Prior to 1998?
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` Q. Correct.
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` A. I may have, but it wasn't common.
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` Q. Are you familiar with the term "risk factors"?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What are risk factors?
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` A. Risk factors are events that may happen that
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`would adversely affect a business.
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` Q. Do prospectuses generally include risk
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`factors?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. In your experience, do people tend to be sort
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`of as negative as possible in describing risk factors
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`associated with a particular business?
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` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: They're not as negative as
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`possible because if they were as negative as possible,
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000025
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 24
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`they wouldn't be looking to work in that business.
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`BY MS. SKLENAR:
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` Q. Well, how would you characterize the general
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`approach to risk factors that are laid out in things
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`like prospectuses?
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` A. Conservative.
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` Q. In 1998, you founded and ran UMG's eLabs as
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`eLabs president; is that correct?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. Did that position as eLabs president also
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`include a legal component?
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` A. No.
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` Q. So that was a business function; is that
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`right?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. Prior to the time you became eLabs
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`president, did you work with individuals who had
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`computer engineering background?
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` A. Prior to the time, yes, I did.
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` Q. And when was that?
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` A. Well, I worked with them all through my career
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`at Universal.
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` Q. Who was that?
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` A. The -- we had a recording studio, mastering
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`studio, and those were run by technical people. Also, I
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`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000026
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 25
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`was on various committees at industry associations such
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`as the RIAA, the IFPI, and they had technical people on
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`staff ready to advise with any technical issues and
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`questions. And I also worked on developing new formats,
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`which would also include technical people on those
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`groups -- in those groups.
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` Q. Can you give me some names of the technical
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`individuals you worked with prior to 1998?
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` A. Sure. Try and get the dates right.
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` Paul Jessop, J-E-S-S-O-P.
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` Paul West, W-E-S-T.
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` Chris Horton, H-O-R-T-O-N.
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` Albhy, A-L-B-H-Y, Galuten, G-A-L-U-T-E-N.
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` It was a cross-over person, both technical and
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`creative.
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` There were technical people also at the RIAA,
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`but I can't recall who was there before '98.
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` Q. The individuals that you named -- Mr. Jessop,
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`Mr. Galuten, Mr. West, and Mr. Horton -- were all those
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`employees of UMG?
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` A. No.
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` Mr. Jessop was the head of technology for the
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`IFPI.
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` Mr. Galuten became an employee of UMG prior to
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`'98, but I worked with him before that.
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000027
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 26
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` Mr. Horton was at Panasonic, and we hired him
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`around 1998 to work for us.
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` And who else did I mention? There was one
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`more name I had.
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` Q. Mr. West?
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` A. Yes. Paul West ran the Universal recording
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`studio, so he was employed.
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` Q. So let me just run through the list.
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` Mr. Galuten, what was his technical
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`background?
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` A. He worked as a record producer.
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` Q. What was his undergraduate degree in?
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` A. I don't know.
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` Q. Did he have a graduate degree?
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` A. I don't know.
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` Q. What about Paul Jessop? Do you know what his
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`technical background was?
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` A. He was a -- I don't know his degree, but he
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`was definitely a techie.
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` Q. When you say, "He was definitely a techie" --
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` A. I would say he probably had a graduate degree
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`in electrical engineering or something like that because
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`he was more hardcore, let's say.
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` Q. But you don't know one way or another what
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`specific degrees he held?
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000028
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 27
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` A. I don't know what his degrees were.
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` Q. I know the court reporter is going to shoot us
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`both if we don't stop talking over each other. So we
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`don't want her to do that.
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` What about Mr. West? What technical degree
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`did he have?
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` A. I don't know his education.
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` Q. And what about Mr. Horton? What technical
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`degree did he have?
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` A. He went to graduate school at MIT. I don't
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`know exactly what his degree was in.
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` Q. Okay. Prior to 1998, did you personally have
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`any firsthand experience with the technical constraint
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`for the storage of digital audio files?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What was that?
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` A. Prior to the founding of eLabs, I was
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`basically ramping up the same job. So I'd say starting
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`in around 1993, I became -- I started working on the
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`development of, internally, of digital business planning
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`for the company, specifically for the digital
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`downloading of files.
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` Q. Apart from planning for the company, did you
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`do anything firsthand in the field as far as it relates
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`to the storage of the digital audio files?
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`Merrill Corporation - San Francisco
`www.merrillcorp.com/law
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`PAGE 000029
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`LAWRENCE KENSWIL - 4/2/2014
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`Page 28
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` MS. FUKUDA: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Our general plan at that point
`
`was to learn as much as possi
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