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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - -
`LIBERTY MUTUAL :
`INSURANCE CO., :
` Plaintiff, : No. CBM2012-00003
` vs. : (JL)
`PROGRESSIVE CASUALTY :
`INSURANCE CO., :
` Defendant. :
`
` DEPOSITION UNDER ORAL EXAMINATION OF
` SCOTT ANDREWS
` April 12, 2013
` New York, New York
`
` - - -
` REPORTED BY: DANA N. SREBRENICK, CRR CLR
` - - -
`
` JOB 59618
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - -
`LIBERTY MUTUAL :
`INSURANCE CO., :
` Plaintiff, : No. CBM2012-00003
` vs. : (JL)
`PROGRESSIVE CASUALTY :
`INSURANCE CO., :
` Defendant. :
`
` DEPOSITION UNDER ORAL EXAMINATION OF
` SCOTT ANDREWS
` April 12, 2013
` New York, New York
`
` - - -
` REPORTED BY: DANA N. SREBRENICK, CRR CLR
` - - -
`
` JOB 59618
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 2
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` Transcript of the deposition of
` SCOTT ANDREWS, called for Oral Examination in
` the above-captioned matter, said deposition
` taken pursuant to United States Patent and
` Trademark Office rules, by and before DANA N.
` SREBRENICK, a Federally-Approved Certified
` Realtime Reporter, a New Jersey Certified
` Court Reporter and a Certified Livenote
` Reporter, Notary Public for the State of New
` York, at the offices of Ropes & Gray,
` 1211 Avenue of the Americas, New York, New
` York, commencing at 9:24 a.m.
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` APPEARANCES:
` Ropes & Gray
` BY: J. STEVEN BAUGHMAN, ESQ.
` JORDAN ROSSEN, ESQ.
` One Metro Center
` 700 12th Street, NW, Suite 900
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` Counsel for the Plaintiff,
` Liberty Mutual
`
` Jones Day
` BY: JAMES WAMSLEY III, ESQ.
` CALVIN GRIFFITH, ESQ.
` North Point
` 901 Lakeside Avenue
` Cleveland, Ohio 44114
` Counsel for the Defendant,
` Progressive Casualty Insurance
` Company
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` - - -
` I N D E X
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`
` Testimony of:
` SCOTT ANDREWS
` MR. WAMSLEY............................ 7
` BY MR. BAUGHMAN ......................... 177
`
` - - -
` E X H I B I T S
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`
` PROGRESSIVE
` No. Description Page
` Exhibit 2005 Portion of Microsoft
` Computer Dictionary.......126
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` DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX
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` Directions to Witness Not to Answer
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` S. Andrews
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
` start of tape labeled number 1 of the
` videotaped deposition of Scott Andrews
` in the matter of Liberty Mutual
` Insurance versus Progressive Casualty
` Insurance. This deposition is being
` held at 1211 Avenue of the Americas,
` New York, New York, on April 12, 2013,
` at approximately 9:24 a.m.
` My name is Carlos Lopez. I'm
` the legal video specialist from TSG
` Reporting, Inc. The court reporter is
` Dana Srebrenick in association with
` TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce
` yourselves for the record?
` MR. WAMSLEY: Counsel for the
` patent owner Progressive Casualty
` Insurance, James Wamsley, along with
` Calvin Griffith.
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Counsel for the
` petitioner Liberty Mutual, Steve
` Baughman from Ropes & Gray, along with
` my colleague Jordan Rossen.
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` S. Andrews
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the
` court reporter please swear in the
` witness?
` SCOTT ANDREWS, residing at
` 915 Western Avenue, Petaluma,
` California 94952, having first been
` duly sworn by the Certified Court
` Reporter, was examined and testified
` as follows:
` - - -
` DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WAMSLEY:
` - - -
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Andrews.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. We'll start by handing you a
` document entitled Amended Notice of
` Deposition. Have you seen that before?
` A. I don't believe I have.
` Q. Okay. Do you understand that
` we're here today to take your deposition
` pursuant to this notice, in particular CBM
` Covered Business Method proceedings
` 2012-2, 3 and 4 in the Patent Trial and
` Appeal Board?
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` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Okay, thank you.
` Let's hand around some more
` paper just for fun. I'll start with
` what's been previously marked as Exhibit
` 1013 to Liberty Mutual's petition in case
` CBM 2012-2. Do you recognize that as your
` curriculum vitae?
` A. Yes, it appears to be.
` Q. Next I'll hand you what's
` previously been marked as Liberty Mutual
` Exhibit -- excuse me -- yeah, 10,000 --
` excuse me -- 2012 -- I meant 1012 in case
` CBM 2012-2. Do you recognize that as your
` declaration in connection with that
` particular petition?
` A. I do. Pardon me. I'm looking
` at which one this is. I don't know the
` numbers. Okay, yes.
` Q. Okay. Next I'll hand you what's
` previously been marked as Liberty Mutual
` Exhibit 1025 in the Liberty Mutual
` petition CBM 2012-3. Do you recognize
` that as your declaration in that
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` proceeding?
` A. I do.
` Q. And next I'll hand you what's
` previously been marked as Liberty Mutual
` Exhibit 1014 in the petition CBM 2012-4.
` Do you recognize that as your declaration
` in that proceeding?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Okay. Moving right along. Next
` I'll hand you what's previously been
` marked as Liberty Mutual Exhibit 1001 in
` the CBM proceeding CBM 2012-2. Do you
` recognize that as Progressive's U.S.
` Patent 6,064,970?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Can we call that for sake of
` brevity the '970 patent and you'll
` understand what I mean?
` A. Yes, I will.
` Q. Okay. And next let's mark
` what's been identified confusingly as
` Exhibit 1001, again, Liberty Mutual
` Exhibit 1001 in CBM 2012-3. Do you
` recognize that to be a copy of U.S. --
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` Progressive's U.S. Patent 8,140,358?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Can we refer to that as the '358
` patent and you'll understand that's what
` I'm referring to?
` A. That's fine.
` Q. Have you had your deposition
` taken before, Mr. Andrews?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. How many times would you say
` you've had your deposition taken?
` A. I'm not sure if I can give you
` an exact answer without going back to my
` CV, but I think about maybe eight times.
` Q. Okay. So you understand that,
` I'll ask the questions and you'll answer
` under oath?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And furthermore, that if there's
` something unclear about my question,
` you'll let me know?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So with that behind us, let's
` turn to your CV. In particular the last
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` several pages refers to litigation
` consulting matters?
` A. That's right.
` Q. Is this list current and
` up-to-date?
` A. Probably reasonably current. A
` couple of these cases have, like the
` TomTom/Silver State cases settled, so
` there have been some slight changes, but
` I've worked on these cases, yes.
` Q. Have you been engaged in other
` litigation matters since this CV was
` prepared?
` A. Probably looking at this. For
` example, there's a new case -- I haven't
` done any work on it, but I've been engaged
` by Kenyon & Kenyon on behalf of Volkswagon
` for a case -- I don't know the company. I
` think it's Cruise Control Technologies and
` also another case with Kenyon & Kenyon for
` Toyota.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I think that's all that are
` missing from this. Those are all very
`
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` recent.
` Q. Referring, again, to your CV
` here, is it -- is it reasonably complete
` in terms of identifying your experience
` and background?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection to Rule
` 611-A.
` A. I believe so.
` Q. What did you do, if anything,
` between getting your Bachelor's in
` electrical engineering and your Master's
` Degree in electrical engineering?
` A. I worked for two -- about two
` years or so for Ford Aerospace.
` Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Andrews, a lot
` of your declaration testimony has referred
` to something called telematics, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. What do you consider to be
` telematics?
` A. Telematics is a term that was
` originally developed in Europe, probably
` the very early '90s, but it's the
` technology associated with what is also
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` known as intelligent transportation
` systems or ITS, generally characterized by
` computing devices in the car, quite often
` supported by communications between the
` car and some remote facility.
` Q. Is there a line that exists in
` your mind between when or where the
` telematics aspect of a system ends and
` data processing begins?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection to Rule
` 611-A.
` A. Data processing where?
` Q. Anywhere. Data processing -- by
` data processing, I'm referring to
` processing data that's generated within
` the vehicle.
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Same objection.
` A. I don't think there are any hard
` and fast lines as to where that begins and
` ends.
` Q. So if information's collected in
` the vehicle and then later analyzed, you
` would consider that whole system to be
` telematics?
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` A. Yeah, I think that in general,
` the term telematics is a kind of a broad
` term like one might say insurance. It
` encompasses a lot of things and it's --
` it's a convenient way of referring to a
` set of systems. And in the industry,
` we're not too -- not too precise about
` exactly what would and wouldn't be part of
` a telematics system. Generally you would
` say the system is a telematics system
` because it's collecting data and doing
` something with it and maybe sending it
` off-board or maybe it's getting data from
` off-board and doing something within the
` car.
` Q. So am I correct then, it sort of
` depends on the particular circumstances
` whether -- what you do with that data
` after it's been collected is part of the
` telematics system or not?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection to Rule
` 611-A.
` A. I think that's a reasonable
` characterization. You know, a telematics
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` system like OnStar, OnStar would be
` considered a telematics system. You are
` getting data from the car. It goes to a
` server. People work with that data in
` some way. It gets processed in various
` ways actually, and ultimately somebody
` comes and helps you fix your car. And
` that whole system is a service that's
` provided by the telematics system.
` I'm not quite sure where I would
` draw the line as to is the -- is the tow
` truck part of the telematics system or
` not. So it really depends on what you're
` doing with it.
` Q. Okay. You've worked with
` telematics systems throughout your career;
` is that correct?
` A. Not my entire career, but my
` entire recent 20, 25 years has been
` involved in telematics.
` Q. So are there any particular
` areas that your prior experience, work
` experience has involved with respect to
` telematics?
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` A. What do you mean by "particular
` areas," particular technologies or --
` Q. We can start with particular
` technologies, yeah.
` A. I'd say generally communication
` systems, data communication systems,
` location systems, GPS, things like that,
` certainly sensor systems and what's called
` the EE architecture,
` electrical/electronics architecture of
` cars, map databases, and maybe user
` interfaces and server systems to provide
` services to the car from remote
` facilities.
` Q. What types of services?
` A. There are all kinds of services.
` There are simple systems, for example,
` that might collect traffic information
` from loop sensors and third-parties and
` what not and generate traffic reports that
` would be sent to the car and then
` displayed on a navigation system. There
` are systems that collect data from the car
` and turn it into traffic data, collect
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` data from the car and use it for remote
` diagnostics, all sorts of applications
` like that.
` Q. So those last few examples that
` you gave, are those examples of projects
` you've actually been engaged in working
` on?
` A. Yes, at different times.
` Q. Okay. Have you, in your career,
` ever developed or designed a telematics
` system yourself?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection to Rule
` 611-A.
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. Can you identify any such
` systems you've designed?
` A. I don't know if I can identify
` all of them, but we can start with a --
` the very first of these sorts of systems
` involving communications was a system, I
` believe, I talked about it in the
` background of my declaration. It was a
` system that allowed the user in the car to
` request information typically about
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` location-oriented things. The system
` would then send information to the car
` that the car would process and then send
` back to the system so that the car -- or
` the system could figure out where the car
` was. This was before GPS. And then the
` combination of knowing the location of the
` car and the request from the user, the
` system would then respond to the request
` for information by providing, for example,
` directions to the nearest ATM or the
` nearest gas station or something like
` that.
` Q. Did that system have a name so
` we can refer to it by shorthand?
` A. We can call it the TRW off-board
` information system.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I suppose. We never productized
` or sold it.
` Q. It was never commercialized?
` A. No.
` Q. Is that what you mean?
` A. That's right.
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` Q. And what was your contribution
` to that system's design?
` A. I lead the project from a
` project management perspective. I
` developed the architecture, the conceptual
` architecture of which things did what,
` which functions were performed in what
` components. I worked with a company at
` the time called Air Touch Teletrack, which
` was the -- it was a stolen vehicle
` location system company, and they provided
` the communications and locating service
` and worked with a company that was at the
` time called Navigation Technologies is now
` called NAVTEQ, N-A-V-T-E-Q, which provided
` the NAV database.
` So I organized all of those
` companies, figured out kind of a way that
` the system should work, and then I worked
` very close with a more-junior engineer who
` actually had the device fabricated and
` wrote the code to make the device work.
` Q. Are there other telematics
` systems that you, yourself, developed and
`
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` designed besides this -- this one TRW
` system we've been talking about?
` A. Sure. There are -- there was a
` very large program that I was the chief
` system engineer for -- this was later, but
` between '06 and '09 -- called the vehicle
` infrastructure integration project. It
` was sponsored by the Federal Highway
` Administration. And on that, very
` similar, I was responsible for developing
` all of the requirements for a system that
` would have vehicles send and receive
` information to remote facilities using
` kind of a derivative of Wifi from hot
` spots on the roadway.
` I also developed similar kinds
` of system concepts, not all of which were
` put into practice, when I was at Toyota.
` So a period from '96 to 2000, my job was
` essentially to develop those system
` concepts.
` Q. Have any of the systems that
` you've worked on the design and
` development related to rating insurance?
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` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection to Rule
` 611-A.
` A. I'm not sure if I know what you
` mean by "rating insurance."
` Q. Well, let's look at one of your
` declarations then, the one that's been
` previously marked as Liberty Mutual
` Exhibit 1025.
` A. Okay.
` Q. If you'd look at page 7,
` paragraph 17, do you see the first
` sentence of that paragraph, "The field of
` art." Do you see that?
` A. I see that.
` Q. Okay. So what I -- what I mean
` by rating insurance is the same thing
` you've referred to here, "insurance
` rating."
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A.
` A. Okay. What I'm referring to
` here is basically kind of my paraphrasing
` of the patent which is it deals with
` figuring out insurance stuff. I'm not an
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` insurance expert so -- and I haven't built
` a system that does insurance things.
` Q. So none of the systems you've
` worked with in telematics have involved
` insurance; is that correct?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Object to Rule
` 611-A.
` A. None of the systems that I've
` built have or conceptualized have been
` done in conjunction with an insurance
` company. I'm not certain. I'd have to go
` back and catalogue all the things I've
` done whether perhaps some of the concepts
` didn't include kind of a technical
` person's understanding of, you know, what
` an insurance company might do because
` we're all insurance customers, so we kind
` of have a layperson's understanding of
` that.
` So there may have been systems
` that we conceived of and we thought, you
` know, you could do some insurance-related
` thing with this as well, but we didn't
` work specifically with an insurance
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` company and actually develop a formalized
` product or a formalized concept with any
` of that.
` Q. Were any of those systems that
` you contributed to the design and
` development of actually used for insurance
` purposes to your knowledge?
` A. Not that I'm aware of.
` Q. Now, would you agree with me
` that telematics systems come in many
` different configurations?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection to Rule
` 611-A.
` A. There are many types of
` telematics systems, yes.
` Q. Some would use different devices
` than others; is that correct?
` A. You mean different technologies,
` different implementations of the same
` technology?
` Q. It could be either of those as
` examples, yes.
` A. I think there's a wide variety
` of implementations of telematics systems.
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` Q. Both in the vehicle and outside
` the vehicle, would you say that's true,
` too?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A.
` A. It depends a lot on at the level
` that you ask that question. At the
` highest level of, say, an off-board
` system, you have a mobile unit. You have
` a communications systems and you have a
` fixed infrastructure. And, you know,
` almost all of the telematics systems have
` those. So they -- at that level of
` detail, they are going to have the same
` components, but obviously when you get
` down to the nuts and bolts, the technical
` nuts and bolts of a particular
` implementation, they are almost all
` different.
` Q. Right. And in that sense, am I
` correct that data is processed in
` different ways in various different
` telematics systems?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
`
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` 611-A.
` A. I guess, again, do you mean --
` how do you mean "processed in different
` ways"? I'll give you an example. I -- I
` could ask for -- or let's do remote
` diagnostics, which is more to the topic.
` I could collect data from a car, and in
` one of many ways, and I could bundle that
` data up in some kind of a message
` associated with one of many protocols,
` communications protocols, and I could send
` it to off-board system that would receive
` it, and I could do a wide variety of
` things with it. So, yes, there are a wide
` array of ways that you could process that
` data and collect it, send it, receive it
` and process it.
` Q. So in your view, there's no such
` thing as a, quote, typical telematics
` system?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A.
` A. I think it depends on the level
` at which you look at it. You could --
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` Q. Once you get beyond that super
` high level that you mentioned earlier and
` start looking at the particulars of the
` system, would you agree that there's no
` one typical system that would necessarily
` contain all the same components?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A.
` A. I guess it kind of goes back to
` the way I answered at the beginning. You
` said, "Necessarily contain all of the same
` components," and, you know, it probably
` wouldn't contain all of the same resistors
` and capacitors and screws and labels and
` connectors and things, but at some level,
` you would have sensors in the car, might
` not have exactly the same sensors from one
` implementation to the next. You would
` have some sort of a radio transmitter. It
` might not be the same one, but all of
` these systems operate and perform the
` functions of collecting data on either
` end, putting it in some form for
` communications and using that data at the
`
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` other end. Would they use exactly the
` same parts? I would say probably not.
` Q. And is -- let me follow up on
` what you just said because is it your view
` that any telematics system as of 1996
` would necessarily have used some sort of
` radio transmission of data?
` A. Not all of the telematics
` systems would do that. Some of them might
` use manual -- we did a lot of work with
` things like memory sticks, moving them in
` and out of the car when I was at Toyota.
` So, as I said, telematics is a pretty
` broad field, so there's a lot of different
` ways that you can approach acquiring and
` moving and processing data.
` Q. Prior to 1996, were any -- and
` you started at Toyota in 1996; am I right?
` A. That's right.
` Q. So prior to 1996, did any of the
` telematics systems you worked on involve
` processing the data in the vehicle as
` opposed to communicating it remotely to
` some other server or computer?
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` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A.
` A. We did both.
` Q. And those -- those systems where
` you didn't communicate the data, how --
` how was the data processed once it was
` collected in the vehicle?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A.
` A. How was it processed in the
` vehicle?
` Q. How was it processed in general
` after it had been collected in the
` vehicle, if it didn't involve
` communicating it to a remote location?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Same objection.
` A. Well, there were systems that I
` worked on, for example, vehicle safety
` systems that might sense a variety of
` things in the car and perhaps might sense
` things outside the car like with a radar,
` sense potential obstacles and things. And
` some of the system concepts we developed
` would, for example, have the car -- TRW is
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` an airbag and seatbelt manufacturer as
` well as the work that I did. And so we
` developed concepts where the car, seatbelt
` and airbag system might be pre-set
` essentially for the particular
` characteristics of the collision that was
` about to happen. So if I had radars on
` the car, I could know exactly where
` something was going to hit the car, and I
` would, in the car, process that
` information and trigger the appropriate or
` pre-set the appropriate safety systems so
` that we could maximize the safety of the
` occupants. That's one example of
` processing in the car.
` Q. Okay. So, when you worked at
` TRW, you supervised engineers who were
` working on the development and design of
` different telematics systems; am I right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. So in those instances, were they
` developing new applications that made use
` of the vehicle data that had been
` collected?
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` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A.
` A. In some cases.
` Q. So can you name one or two of
` those cases?
` A. Well, one of them, for example,
` was a -- an occupant-sensing system where
` we developed a mechanism for ascertaining
` and characterizing the presence and size
` of the occupants in the car. And that was
` used really conceptually, we didn't build
` this -- we built the sensing system. But
` conceptually that was intended to be used
` for two purposes: One of them was in the
` car, which was to appropriately set the
` safety systems so you could, for example,
` modulate the rate of inflation of the
` passenger airbag if the person was small
` or not fire it if it was a child in the
` seat or something like that, and also sent
` that information off-board so that in the
` event that the airbags had gone off, the
` emergency personnel who would come to
` respond to the accident would know how
`
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` many occupants and what kind of occupants
` had been in the car or were in the car.
` Q. Did you give -- did you regard
` that as a unique telematics system
` application --
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A.
` Q. -- at the time?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Sorry, objection,
` Rule 611-A.
` A. What do you mean by "unique"?
` Q. Did you think it was something
` new and different from what had been
` previously done?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Same objection.
` A. Parts of it.
` Q. Do you know if any patents were
` applied for in connection with that
` system?
` A. I don't think so. They could
` have -- some of them might have patented
` it after I left TRW, but I don't believe
` so. I wasn't involved in any patents on
` it.
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` Q. Were patents applied for, to
` your knowledge, on any of the telematics
` systems that you worked on over your
` career?
` A. Yeah, I have a number of patents
` on various telematics systems, mostly with
` Toyota.
` Q. And so for those systems, in
` your view, am I correct that they involve
` a -- a new and different approach to
` developing or using telematics data?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Objection, Rule
` 611-A and foundation.
` A. Well, I mean, patents are always
` very specific. So I'm not sure if they --
` if I would characterize -- I'd have to
` look at the list, but characterize my
` patents as, however you said it,
` developing, generating and using
` telematics data.
` Q. A new and different approach to
` developing or using telematics data?
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Same objection.
` A. I'm -- I'm not sure if I would
`
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` characterize them that way. I mean, I
` have a patent, for example, on sensing the
` state of activity and -- in the car, what
` the driver is doing, what the car is
` doing. And changing the behavior -- this
` is an example of one of these patents from
` Toyota -- changing the way in which
` incoming communications -- so a page or a
` phone call or something like that would be
` presented to the driver so that it would
` be situationally appropriate. I don't
` know if that's what I would characterize
` as a new use of telematics data, but
` that's an example of one of the things
` that we patented.
` Q. In any event, you would agree
` with me that there are new possible
` applications of telematics data that have
` been devel
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