UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 186
`
` LIBERTY MUTUAL INSURANCE )
` COMPANY, ) No. CBM2012-00002
` ) CBM2012-00004 (JL)
` Petitioner, ) Patent 6,064,970
` )
` vs. ) No. CBM2013-0004 (JL)
` ) Patent 8,090,598
` PROGRESSIVE CASUALTY )
` INSURANCE COMPANY, ) No. CBM2012-0003
` ) CBM2013-0009 (JL)
` Patent Owner. ) Patent 8,140,358
` ______________________________)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SCOTT ANDREWS
` Palo Alto, California
` Tuesday, September 24, 2013
` Volume 2
`
`Reported by:
`LESLIE ROCKWOOD, RPR, CSR 3462
`Job No. 65807
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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` Do you see that?
` A. I see that.
` Q. What references do you believe this person of
`ordinary skill in the art would correct -- would
`consult? Excuse me.
` A. Well, for example, they might consult the Wang
`book that was quoted by or recited by Dr. Ehsani. If
`they were doing this in 1999, they'd probably use the
`Langari and Yen book. There are other texts on fuzzy
`logic.
` And there also quite often -- certainly at this
`time in the development of the technology, there were
`many articles in things like electronic design news and
`electrical engineering magazines, kind of trade
`magazines that would be very hands-on specific examples
`of how to use one sort of technology or another. And
`many engineers used those as a vehicle for understanding
`how to make use of a new technology, and then they would
`go and find a reference that had specific details on it.
` Q. As you sit here today, can you identify any
`such articles that related to the field of fuzzy logic
`as of 1996 that these engineers would have consulted, in
`your opinion?
` A. To actually identify them by name and
`publication date, no, but I recall reading articles like
`
`Page 205
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` MR. MYERS: Objection. 402, 403.
` THE WITNESS: I don't think that they would
`need to because Kosaka is fairly explicit about its
`application of fuzzy logic. I would think that someone
`reading Kosaka would look at it and say, well, this is
`clearly an application of fuzzy logic to this
`classification problem so I'm going to go to a textbook
`like Wang or Langari and Yen and find out the specific
`details of how to implement that.
` The engineers that you were referring to
`earlier, the engineers that I supervised that were
`making use of these kinds of systems, didn't have a
`patent in front of them saying to use fuzzy logic. They
`had a problem, which was they needed to classify things
`which were being classified on the basis of a wide
`number of possibly conflicting variables.
` And so they're faced with that problem, they
`would have recalled reading an article that that was --
`that fuzzy logic was a good technology to use for that,
`and then they would have gone and probably reread that
`article, if they could find it, and then gone and gotten
`a text.
` So I think you're talking about two different
`situations here. Someone reading Kosaka would not need
`to have that information because Kosaka tells them.
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`that in periodicals.
` Q. Do you recall when you read them?
` A. Well, pretty much all my career. So beginning
`in the early '80s, I would -- all of us would subscribe
`to those magazines and periodicals, but I don't recall a
`specific article which is what you would like me to cite
`to. So I don't have a specific article that I can --
` Q. I'm sorry, did you finish?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Okay. And is it your testimony under oath
`today that you recall reviewing such articles dealing
`with fuzzy logic prior to 1996?
` A. Almost certainly I recall reading articles on
`fuzzy logic, on Solitons, there are a whole lot of
`technologies like this which are not typically the
`things that you learn in school, but they're very, very
`useful technologies. And there were always articles
`about these things in those trade magazines, but I can't
`recall a particular article that I read.
` Q. So is it your opinion, Mr. Andrews, that this
`hypothetical person of ordinary skill in the art would
`be able to combine what was taught in those articles or
`other publications dealing with fuzzy logic with the
`disclosure of the Kosaka patent application in order to
`understand how to apply that?
`
`Page 206
`
`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
` Q. Let me direct your attention to paragraph 8 of
`your rebuttal declaration. Again, that's Exhibit 1019.
`And here you're stating opinions with respect to the
`membership functions described in Kosaka; correct?
` A. That's right.
` Q. Mr. Andrews, would you agree with me that
`Kosaka does not disclose the particular parameter values
`that are associated with the membership functions he
`uses in his device?
` A. Do you have -- I'm sorry, do you have a copy of
`Kosaka?
` Q. I do and you do.
` A. That's fine.
` Q. That's Exhibit 1004.
` A. I was thrown off by the Japanese.
` Q. And if you want the question back, we can have
`the reporter read it back.
` A. Why don't you go ahead and read it back.
` (The record was read by the reporter
` as follows:
` "QUESTION: Mr. Andrews, would you agree with
` me that Kosaka does not disclose the particular
` parameter values that are associated with the
` membership functions he uses in his device?")
`
`6 (Pages 203 to 206)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 239
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`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
` Q. And among the many things you say you could
`have put in your original declaration was this opinion
`in the first sentence of paragraph 10.
` Am I right?
` MR. MYERS: Objection. 402, 403.
` THE WITNESS: As long as we're speculating, I
`could have put this in there.
`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
` Q. Does that require speculation for you to say
`you could have done it?
` A. Well, we're speculating here about things that
`I could have put into my original declaration as opposed
`to why I put them in this declaration. I put them in
`this declaration to respond to Dr. Ehsani.
` I could have put, you know, a comprehensive
`claim chart about Kosaka into my first declaration, but
`I didn't feel that it was necessary.
` Q. Dr. Ehsani didn't testify in his declaration
`that fuzzy logic had to be used in Kosaka, did he?
` MR. MYERS: Objection. 402, 403.
` THE WITNESS: I don't -- I have to read through
`his entire declaration, I guess, to answer definitively,
`but I don't recall that he did that.
`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
`
`Page 241
`
` Am I right?")
` MR. MYERS: Objection. 402, 403.
` THE WITNESS: He actually says at the bottom of
`the first column of page 6: "But determination may be
`carried out without using fuzzy logic. Calculation may
`also be carried out using a common insurance table."
` So he provides an alternative, which would be
`just implementing an insurance table in crisp logic. He
`doesn't provide you with a diagram of that.
`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
` Q. There's no disclosure of how those crisp logic
`functions would be carried out.
` Am I right?
` MR. MYERS: Objection. 402, 403.
` THE WITNESS: They would be carried out using a
`common insurance table.
`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
` Q. Do you have familiarity with a common insurance
`table, Mr. Andrews?
` A. Well, I think we've established that I'm not an
`expert in insurance.
` Q. So your answer is "no"?
` A. No.
` MR. MYERS: Objection. 402, 403.
`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
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`Page 240
` Q. Now later in paragraph 10, you testify that if
`Kosaka implemented the system using crisp logic, many of
`the same components as described for the fuzzy logic
`system would be required.
` Do you see that?
` A. I see that.
` Q. Would you agree with me that some of the
`components would not be the same if he -- if his system
`were implemented as you suggest in crisp logic?
` A. Well, you probably wouldn't have the fuzzy
`logic parts.
` Q. Exactly. Moreover, there's no disclosure in
`Kosaka of how those crisp logic units would be used.
` Am I right?
` MR. MEYERS: Objection. 402, 403.
` THE WITNESS: Do you want to restate your
`question?
`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
` Q. Do you want me to restate it or can the
`reporter just read it back, please.
` (The record was read by the reporter
` as follows:
` "QUESTION: Moreover, there's no disclosure in
` Kosaka of how those crisp logic units would be
` used.
`
`Page 242
` Q. So how the crisp logic would be carried out
`were it to be used in building the Kosaka invention,
`that would require insurance expertise?
` MR. MYERS: Objection. 402, 403.
` THE WITNESS: Someone would need to understand
`what a common insurance table contained, appropriate for
`this application, and how one would compare measured
`values to that table. But that comparison process is
`fairly straightforward from a technical perspective.
`It's just that I don't know what the content of a common
`insurance table would be.
`BY MR. WAMSLEY:
` Q. Let's turn to your testimony in paragraphs 11,
`12 and 13 of your rebuttal declaration, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And that refers to the article entitled "An
`Interest in Black Magic," which is Liberty Mutual
`Exhibit 1008. Do you have that?
` A. I have that.
` Q. Now, in your original declaration, you didn't
`provide any testimony with respect to this article, did
`you? And feel free to consult it. You have it there in
`front of you.
` A. Yeah. It's been a long time, so --
` In this declaration, it's not listed as one of
`
`15 (Pages 239 to 242)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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