`
` VOLUME 15
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`Pages 3827 - 4052
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` Under Seal Pages 3998 - 4014
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`UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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`NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
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`Before The Honorable YVONNE GONZALEZ ROGERS, Judge
`
`)
`EPIC GAMES, INC.,
` )
` Plaintiff,
`) NO. C-20-5640 YGR
` )
` vs. ) Friday, May 21, 2021
` )
`APPLE, INC., ) Oakland, California
`)
`) BENCH TRIAL
` Defendant.
`____________________________)
`APPLE, INC.,
`)
`)
`)
` Counterclaimant,
` vs. )
`)
`)
`)
`)
` Counter-Defendant.
`____________________________)
`
`EPIC GAMES, Inc.,
`
`
`
`REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
`
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
`For Plaintiff: CRAVATH, SWAINE & MOORE, LLP
` 825 Eighth Avenue
` New York, New York 10019
` BY: KATHERINE B. FORREST, ESQUIRE
` GARY A. BORNSTEIN, ESQUIRE
`YONATAN EVEN, ESQUIRE
`(Appearances continued.)
`
`Reported By: Diane E. Skillman, CSR 4909, RPR, FCRR
` Pamela Batalo-Hebel, CSR 3593, RMR, FCRR
` Raynee Mercado, CSR 8258 RMR, CRR, FCRR
`
`TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION
`
`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 2 of 210
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`3828
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`
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`CRAVATH, SWAINE & MOORE, LLP
`For Plaintiff:
` 825 Eighth Avenue
` New York, New York 10019
` BY: LAUREN A. MOSKOWITZ, ESQUIRE
`JUSTIN C. CLARKE, ESQUIRE
`W. WES EARNHARDT, ESQUIRE
`BRENDAN BLAKE, ESQUIRE
`JIN NIU, ESQUIRE
`BRENT BYARS, ESQUIRE
`
`
`
`
`
`For Defendant: GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER
` 333 South Grand Avenue
` Los Angeles, California 90071
` BY: RICHARD J. DOREN, ESQUIRE
`DAN SWANSON, ESQUIRE
`CYNTHIA RICHMAN, ESQUIRE
`RACHEL BRASS, ESQUIRE
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`
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`GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER, LLP
`2001 Ross Avenue, Suite 1100
`Dallas, Texas 75201
` BY: VERONICA S. MOYE, ESQUIRE
`
`PAUL WEISS RIFKIND
`WHARTON & GARRISON LLP
`2001 K STREET, NW
`Washington, DC 20006
` BY: KAREN DUNN, ESQUIRE
`JESSICA E. PHILLIPS, ESQUIRE
`
`For Defendant:
`
`PAUL WEISS RIFKIND
`WHARTON & GARRISON LLP
`943 Steiner Street
`San Francisco, California 94117
` BY: ARPINE LAWYER, ESQUIRE
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 3 of 210
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`Defendant's Witnesses:
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`Page
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` Vol.
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`Cook, Timothy
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`Direct Examination by Ms. Moye
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`Cross-examination by Mr. Bornstein
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`Redirect Examination by Ms. Moye
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`Recross-examination by Mr. Bornstein
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`Further Redirect Examination by Ms. Moye
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`Further Redirect Examination by Ms. Moye
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`(Sealed Examinations)
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`Further Redirect Examination by Ms. Moye
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`3998
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`Further Recross-examination by Mr. Bornstein
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`Further Redirect Examination by Ms. Moye
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`Rubin, Aviel
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`Cross-examination by Mr. Byars (continued)
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`Redirect Examination by Mr. Lo
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 4 of 210
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`Plaintiff's Exhibits:
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`Evd. Vol.
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`Defendant's Exhibits:
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`Withdrawn
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`Evd. Vol.
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 5 of 210
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`3831
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`FRIDAY, MAY 21, 2021
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`8:00 a.m.
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`P R O C E E D I N G S
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`THE CLERK: Calling Civil Action 20-5640, Epic Games,
`
`Inc., vs. Apple, Inc.
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`Counsel, please state your appearances.
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`MS. FORREST: Good morning, Your Honor. Katherine
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`Forrest for Epic.
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`THE COURT: Good morning, Ms. Forrest.
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`MR. BORNSTEIN: Good morning. Gary Bornstein for
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`Epic.
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`THE COURT: Mr. Bornstein, welcome back.
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`MR. EVEN: Good morning. Yonatan Even for Epic.
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`THE COURT: Good morning.
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`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Good morning, Your Honor. Lauren
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`Moskowitz for Epic.
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`THE COURT: Okay. Good morning.
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`MR. KARIN: Good morning. John Karin for Epic.
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`THE COURT: John Karin. Welcome to the courtroom.
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`First time, right?
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`Mr. Sweeney, good morning.
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`MR. SWEENEY: Good morning, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT: Mr. Rudd, good morning.
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`MR. RUDD: Good morning.
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`THE COURT: Okay. On the Apple side.
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`Mr. --
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 6 of 210
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`MS. MOYÉ: Good morning, Your Honor. Veronica Moyé
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`THE COURT: Good morning, Ms. Moyé.
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`MS. YANG: Good morning, Your Honor. Betty Yang for
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`for Apple.
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`Apple.
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`THE COURT: Ms. Yang, welcome back.
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`MR. DOREN: Good morning, Your Honor. Richard Doren
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`for Apple. And we are here with Kate Adams and Heather
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`Grenier and, of course, Mr. Schiller.
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`THE COURT: Okay. Good morning to each of you.
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`All right.
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`Mr. Spalding.
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`MR. SPALDING: Good morning. Your Honor.
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`THE COURT:
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`It only took me three weeks to get the
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`two of you right.
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`I see Ms. Dunn back there. Good morning.
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`Who else do we have in the back?
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`MS. MOYÉ: Your Honor, we have our witness, Mr. Tim
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`Cook.
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`THE COURT: Mr. Cook, good morning.
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`MS. MOYÉ: We have Ms. Dunn, Karen Dunn; we have Kyle
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`Andeer from Apple; we have Kate Kaso-Howard from Apple; and we
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`have Lauren Dansey from Gibson Dunn, also for Apple.
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`THE COURT: Okay. Good morning to each of you.
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`And let's see. We've got some additional folks in the
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`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 7 of 210
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`gallery.
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`So from the press, my notes show that we have Michael
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`Acton from MLex.
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`MR. ACTON: Good morning, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT: Good morning, Sir.
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`And then Dorothy Atkins from Law 360?
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`MS. ATKINS: Good morning.
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`THE COURT: Good morning.
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`Betsy Manifold is back for the plaintiffs' counsel.
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`MS. MANIFOLD: Good morning, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT: Good morning.
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`All right. Then I see some additional folks.
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`MS. FORREST: Yes. Your Honor, I can -- since they
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`don't have mics, I can introduce them.
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`We have Brent Byars, who you remember from yesterday; and
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`Jessica Choi, also working with Mr. Byars on the witness;
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`Lauren Kloss, our beachmaster; and then Justin Clarke, one of
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`our partners.
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`THE COURT: Okay. Well, we are going a little bit
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`extra on people today, but I'm going to use my discretion and
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`allow it.
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`MS. MOYÉ: Thank you, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT: Good morning, Ms. Behringer.
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`MS. BEHRINGER: Good morning, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT: That is our courtroom artist, who is
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`
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 8 of 210
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`Okay. A few things to do before we get started. I have
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`my list.
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`Ms. Forrest, do you have a list of things to address?
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`MS. FORREST:
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`I do, Your Honor. And I have conferred
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`with Mr. Doren on these.
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`The first is just on the time sheet that we were given
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`this morning. I wanted to confirm that we had, according to
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`the Court's numbers, 2 hours and 16 minutes left. That should
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`be -- 13 more minutes should be deducted from that because
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`we'll hand up now the final finding -- deposition designation
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`binder, and when we added in some additional testimony from
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`Mr. Gray, it's 13 minutes. So we actually have, I believe, 2
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`hours and 3 minutes.
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`Apple's counter-designations to Mr. Gray were minor. They
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`were 11 minutes, and so that brings them down to 6 hours and
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`38.
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`THE COURT: Okay.
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`MS. FORREST: And we're prepared --
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`THE COURT: Agreed?
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`MR. DOREN: Yes, Your Honor.
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`MS. FORREST: And we're prepared to hand up, then,
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`the final binder of the deposition designations.
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`THE COURT: Great. I'm glad I did not take it
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`earlier.
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 9 of 210
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`Okay. Next.
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`MS. FORREST: All right. The next is to then confirm
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`for Your Honor that the -- or confirm with Your Honor that the
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`expert direct testimony has now -- we would move the admission
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`of all of it. It had been provisionally admitted previously.
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`We have two, Athey and Cragg, where we are waiting for the
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`final rulings, but subject to those final rulings, we would
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`move for the admission of all of the experts on both sides.
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`MR. DOREN: And, Your Honor, obviously, we're fine
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`with that, subject to the Court's rulings.
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`The only administrative matter is that the versions of our
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`written directs before the Court still have highlighting on
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`them for which we were waiting for evidence, and we'd like to
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`submit clean copies to the Court either later today or over
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`the weekend. But in terms of admission of the testimony, we
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`have no objection.
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`THE COURT: Okay. I believe that that was part of
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`the last filing of last night. This is Docket 725, which
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`included additional exhibits, and then -- oh, no, these were
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`depos. Okay.
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`So Docket 725 is -- is admitted just for purposes of the
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`record, because I've already updated my exhibit list.
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`With respect to -- well, let me go back to the experts.
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`In general, the request is fine, but I do want to -- I do want
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`to address something else with respect to their testimony.
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 10 of 210
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`What else do you have?
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`MS. FORREST: All right. I have three other just
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`sort of logistics and then one request.
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`On logistics, we've got the findings of fact that we've
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`been giving to Your Honor --
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`THE COURT: Yes.
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`MS. FORREST: -- periodically.
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`We were wondering whether or not we could have a couple of
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`extra days for the very final one so we could ensure that
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`we've done a complete sort of cite check. And if we could
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`submit the final final on Friday of next week or any other day
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`that Your Honor would find acceptable, we would appreciate
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`that. We'll be -- some people on our team will be traveling
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`back to the East Coast, which is why we had selected Friday.
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`THE COURT: Yeah, I think that -- Mr. Doren?
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`MR. DOREN: Sure. Yes, Your Honor. In light of the
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`travel, we're fine with that.
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`THE COURT:
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`I think that that's fine. I don't -- one
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`of the reasons why -- why I ordered that you do it, in
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`addition to the suggestion from my colleague, Jeff White, for
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`whom I will give credit -- if you have any complaints, you can
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`come to me; if you want to give credit, you go to him -- is
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`because I think it has been helpful, at least with respect to
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`the parties, in terms of teasing out particular issues while
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`we were here in trial so we could address them.
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 11 of 210
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`At this point, having them on the 28th, which I think is a
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`week from today, the finals, is fine with me. What I am going
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`to do, though -- it's the start of a long weekend -- I'm going
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`to order that you do them by noon on Friday. That way you're
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`forced to get them done and then you can take a break.
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`MS. FORREST: Very much appreciated, Your Honor.
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`Actually, we will --
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`THE COURT: Noon our time, which is 3:00 p.m. East
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`Coast time.
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`MS. FORREST: Very good.
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`And then two other logistics. We believe it would be
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`useful to have the parties confer and confirm the final list
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`of admitted exhibits.
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`THE COURT: Well, I wanted to do that today.
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`MS. FORREST: Okay. All right.
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`THE COURT:
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`I want us to be on the same page with
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`respect to that, so I'm hoping that we will finish at a
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`time -- but, again, I would like to have some junior lawyers
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`at the mics and we will go through my list. You let me know
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`if you have something different. But I also need to make sure
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`Ms. Stone is on the same page, etc. So we'll do that this
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`afternoon. That was on my list.
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`MS. FORREST: The last logistic before the request is
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`on trial transcripts. To the extent there are typos that are
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`not -- I wouldn't even call them typos -- more that a name
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`
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 12 of 210
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`might be spelled differently or something of that nature that
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`the court reporter might not have been able to anticipate, the
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`parties could confer if there are any erratas to be submitted
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`to the Court for approval, again, by Friday. I'm not sure
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`there will be any, but that would allow us -- it's not to
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`change testimony; it's really just to make sure we've got a
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`clean transcript.
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`MR. DOREN: So long as they're fixing name spellings
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`and things like that, that's fine with me, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT: Okay. And I'm not going to ask the court
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`reporters to go back and change their work. It will just be
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`on the docket for purposes of any appellate issues.
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`MS. FORREST: Yes.
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`And then lastly, Your Honor, Monday is the date for the
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`closing with the back and forth. We've submitted an agenda.
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`The cover note to the agenda asked if the Court had any
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`particular issues that you wanted us to focus on, and if so,
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`we would appreciate very much any direction. There is sort of
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`a long list. You may have more interest in some than in
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`others, and we would love to be able to focus appropriately.
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`THE COURT: Yes. It is an ambitious -- it's an
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`ambitious agenda. I don't think we are going to get through
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`it.
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`hand --
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`MS. FORREST:
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`I have a copy if it would be helpful to
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`
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 13 of 210
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`THE COURT: No, I remember it.
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`And the -- I think remedies would be interesting to hear
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`about; issues relating to, obviously, the nature of the
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`market. I don't need to hear too much with respect to Epic's
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`approach in the sense that -- well, I guess as -- as Professor
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`Schmalensee said, it's a tautology. Of course they have a
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`monopoly if it's their thing, so that doesn't need much
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`argument. The question is whether I accept that argument or
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`not.
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`It is, under the law, the exception, not the rule. It is
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`the rare case, not the obvious case, so I don't know if you
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`want to talk about whether this should be a rare case or not.
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`Issues of substitutes I think are -- are interesting and
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`will be something that I spend some time on.
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`The lack of competition on the 30 percent is something
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`that is troubling. I don't put much weight on litigation
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`moves, so, you know, I don't know that you want to spend a lot
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`of time on those topics.
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`This is a dynamic market. Things are changing rapidly. I
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`have a snapshot. We are at a point in time in a moving
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`stream. So understanding what your perspectives would be for
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`the Court's role in that dynamic environment, that would be
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`interesting to me.
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`Those are questions that I might ask you if I wasn't
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`forecasting right now.
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`
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 14 of 210
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`It's also -- you know, there are a lot of facts that I've
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`said I have to go back and check whether there's any
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`substantiation for some of the positions that are being
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`asserted, and I haven't had the -- I haven't had the time to
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`do that, obviously.
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`Those are the things that come to mind.
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`MR. DOREN: Thank you, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT:
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`I would be -- you know, I will let you
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`all drive the conversation. I will push you faster through
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`topics which are of less concern, and I will spend more time
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`with you on things that are -- you know, that I'm debating
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`right now in the back. But those are the things that come to
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`mind right now.
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`MS. FORREST: All right. Thank you, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT: Mr. Doren, anything else from you?
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`MR. DOREN: Nothing further, Your Honor.
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`THE COURT: The one thing I wanted to talk about --
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`I'll circle back, Ms. Forrest, on the experts.
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`With respect to Cragg, the Spotify documents, Microsoft,
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`the Lori Wright testimony, and then I understand I have a
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`brand-new one on Professor Athey, I may not resolve those
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`issues by Monday. And so what I would suggest is that -- I
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`may end up resolving them in the context of a final order or
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`as an adjunct to the final order.
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`I would suggest in your findings of fact and conclusions
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`of law that if you don't have a ruling for me or from me, that
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`you give alternatives; that is, that you didn't -- what you
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`didn't prove if I choose to strike it and what you did prove
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`if I don't.
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`Those things can be redacted. The testimony can be
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`entered, given that these things are outstanding, in a
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`redacted form, and if I allow it ultimately and you think it's
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`important, then you can refile it in an unredacted form, but
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`that way, at least we have the testimony in the docket and on
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`the record.
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`There is -- I do want to put something on the record with
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`respect to the sidebar that we had earlier in the week -- I
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`have only done one -- because I said a couple of things to the
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`two of you at sidebar that I think are equally relevant to the
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`Spotify documents, and I want that in the record.
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`But out of respect for your request for a sidebar, I'm
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`just going to do that -- that particular portion on the record
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`under seal. We can do that at the end of the day. The rest I
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`will do in written order.
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`Okay?
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`MS. FORREST: Very well.
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`MR. DOREN: Thank you.
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`THE COURT: All right. It is 8:15. Apparently the
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`media line is dead, so we are going to wait.
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`As I was driving in, I saw the cameras outside, clearly
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`
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`not for me, although I wore a nice coat today.
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`THE CLERK:
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`It's now back on.
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`THE COURT:
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`It's now back on.
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`Mr. Cook, come on up, please.
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`MS. MOYÉ: Thank you, Your Honor. Apple calls
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`Mr. Tim Cook.
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`THE CLERK:
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`I will have you remain standing. I will
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`swear you in.
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`TIMOTHY COOK,
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`called as a witness for the Defendant, having been duly sworn,
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`testified as follows:
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`THE WITNESS:
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`I do.
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`THE CLERK: Please be seated.
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`THE WITNESS: Thank you.
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`THE CLERK: And then would you just be sure that mic
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`is kind of pointed under the shield, your face shield, and
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`then please state your full name and spell your last name.
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`THE WITNESS: Timothy Donald Cook, C-O-O-K.
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`THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Cook, we can't hear you yet.
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`THE CLERK: Let me turn on your mic.
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`Okay. Now your mic is on. Sorry.
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`THE COURT: Go ahead.
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`THE WITNESS: Timothy Donald Cook, C-O-O-K.
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`THE COURT: Good morning, sir.
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`THE WITNESS: Good morning.
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`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 17 of 210
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`THE COURT: All right. Let me just double check that
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`I've got that line -- do we have that line working?
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`THE CLERK: Yes, they said it's working.
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`THE COURT: All right. Ms. Moyé, you may proceed.
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`MS. MOYÉ: Thank you, Your Honor.
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`DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
`BY MS. MOYÉ:
`
`Q. Good morning, Mr. Cook.
`
`A. Good morning.
`
`Q. Can I bring you some water? You may need some water
`
`during your testimony.
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`Your Honor, can I approach the witness?
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`THE COURT: You may.
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`THE WITNESS: Thank you.
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`BY MS. MOYÉ:
`
`Q. Mr. Cook, what is your current role at Apple?
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`A. Chief executive officer.
`
`Q.
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`And what are your responsibilities as chief executive
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`officer?
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`A.
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`The overall direction and strategy of the company.
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`Q. How long have you worked at Apple?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Since 1998.
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`And under what circumstances did you come to work at
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`Apple?
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`A.
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`I was working at Compaq Computer at the time, and I got a
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`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 18 of 210
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`call out of the blue that Steve had come back to Apple and was
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`essentially replacing the executive team, and he wanted to
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`talk to me about being the operations chief.
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`Q.
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`A.
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`And are you referring to Mr. Steve Jobs?
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`Yes, of course.
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`Q. What other positions have you held at Apple, Mr. Cook?
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`A.
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`Senior vice-president of worldwide operations, executive
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`vice-president of sales and operations, and the chief
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`operating officer.
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`Q.
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`A.
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`And when did you become CEO?
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`In 2011.
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`Q. What kind of oversight do you have over the App Store?
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`A.
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`It's limited, obviously. In a review capacity is the way
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`I would refer to it.
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`Q. Do you have a role with respect to strategic direction for
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`the App Store?
`
`A.
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`I have a role in strategic direction of the company and so
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`to some degree, but more on a review basis.
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`Q. Can you describe for us, Mr. Cook, your education and
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`employment history?
`
`A.
`
`Sure. Education is I have a Bachelor of Science in
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`industrial engineering from Auburn University and a Master of
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`Business Administration from Duke University.
`
`My career started at IBM. I worked there for about a
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`dozen years and then went to a small company called
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`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 19 of 210
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`Intelligent Electronics in Denver for three years, and then to
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`Compaq for a very short period of time before joining Apple.
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`Q.
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`A.
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`And where did you grow up, Mr. Cook?
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`In Robertsdale, Alabama.
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`Q. Robertsdale, you said?
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`A. Robertsdale.
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`Q. Mr. Cook, how would you describe Apple's mission?
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`A.
`
`It's to make the best products in the world that really
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`enrich people's lives.
`
`Q.
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`And what do you do to try and meet that mission?
`
`A. We do a number of things. We invest like crazy in R&D.
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`We've invested a hundred billion dollars since -- since the
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`start of the iPhone development, and -- and that number is
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`just accelerated. In fact, we've invested 50 billion in the
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`last three years.
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`In addition to that, we have a maniacal focus on the user,
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`in doing the right thing by the customer. We integrate
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`hardware, software, and services, and we think that we do that
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`better than anyone else.
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`We take a lot of the complexity of technology away from
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`the user and make things simple, not complex.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you, sir.
`
`And what are the key commitments that Apple makes to its
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`customers?
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`A.
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`Simplicity, safety, security, privacy are key,
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`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 20 of 210
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`reliability, quality. You know, the things that make the best
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`products in the world.
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`Q.
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`And why does Apple focus on security, safety, and privacy
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`in particular?
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`A. Well, privacy, from our point of view, is, you know, one
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`of the most important issues of the century, and safety and
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`security are the foundation that privacy is built upon.
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`And if you -- if you look at what's happened today,
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`technology has the ability to sort of vacuum up all kinds of
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`data from people, and we -- we like to provide people tools
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`to -- to circumvent that.
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`Q.
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`And could you explain, why do you believe privacy is one
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`of the most important issues?
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`A.
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`I think that in a world where you view that everybody is
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`looking at your every move, you wind up doing less over time.
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`And so it really -- it goes to our civil liberties as
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`Americans, and it really begins to affect your freedom of
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`expression.
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`Q. How does Apple go about ensuring it meets its safety,
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`security, and privacy commitments to its customers?
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`A.
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`Lots of investment, a ton of R&D investment. Obviously we
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`build it in from the ground up, and so it's a core part of our
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`design process, not an add-on, sort of an after-the-fact kind
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`of thing.
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`And in the case of the -- in the case of the App Store, we
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`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 21 of 210
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`review every app that goes on the store.
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`Q.
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`And why, sir, do you feel it's important to review every
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`app that goes on the store?
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`A.
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`Because there can be malicious things that occur. There
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`can be things that vacuum up people's personal data. There
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`can be malware. You know, the list of -- parade of horribles
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`out there is pretty long of things that can happen.
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`Q.
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`Are computer tools able to replace human assessment for
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`app review, in your view?
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`A.
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`I don't think so. You know, I think it's important to
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`have both. But today, the -- it is -- despite the
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`advancements in machine learning, machine learning will not
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`address all of the issues on the App Store. It still needs
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`human judgment.
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`Q.
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`Let's turn back to privacy for a moment. You mentioned
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`its importance.
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`Can you give us an example or two of how Apple has
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`invested to improve customer privacy.
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`A.
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`Sure. This just -- just recently, we went live with
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`Application Tracking Transparency, where it puts the user in
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`control of whether they're being tracked across apps or not.
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`We have a privacy nutrition label on the App Store, which
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`is sort of a simple, at-a-glance way of seeing what data is
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`being collected and what it's being used for, much like a
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`nutrition label in the grocery store would tell you what --
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`
`
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`what is in some food and so forth.
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`We also, several years ago, had Intelligent Tracking
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`Prevention, which looks at your browsing traffic.
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`Q.
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`And, sir, you mentioned that ATT, App Tracking
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`Transparency, was just introduced.
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`A.
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`Yes.
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`Q. When was the privacy nutrition label introduced?
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`A.
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`It was introduced last fall, I believe.
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`Q. What about ITP?
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`A.
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`I believe around three to four years ago, so probably in
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`2017, the fall of 2017, I believe.
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`Q. How have developers responded to Apple's privacy
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`initiatives?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Some applaud it and some are not happy with -- with it.
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`And what do you do when a developer disagrees with your
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`privacy initiatives?
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`A. Well, we listen. You know, we don't have a tin ear, but
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`we're making decisions in the best interests of the user. And
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`I -- I think it's important that -- that -- to know that
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`sometimes there is a conflict between what the developer may
`
`want and what the user may want.
`
`Q.
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`And, sir, in your experience, how have consumers responded
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`to Apple's commitments to safety, security, and privacy?
`
`A. Overwhelmingly positive. The number of notes I get about
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`the -- the actions we have taken are -- are truly, truly
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`
`
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`unbelievably positive.
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`Q. Do you also conduct consumer surveys to get customer
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`feedback on these issues?
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`A. We do.
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`Q.
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`A.
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`And what do those surveys show?
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`They would show that it's a very key factor, one of the
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`top factors of why people choose Apple.
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`Q.
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`Let's turn to the development of the iPhone and the App
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`Store.
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`Did Apple's safety, security, and privacy commitments
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`impact development of the iPhone?
`
`A. Oh, of course. When we launched the iPhone in 2007, there
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`wasn't an App Store. And so the way that you would have --
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`put an app on the phone was using a web app, instead of a --
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`using the App Store.
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`And it wasn't until the following year that we figured out
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`that we could implement such a process of app review that
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`would allow us to let native apps on there without having the
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`security and safety and privacy issues that go along with that
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`if you -- if you do it without a review.
`
`Q. How, sir, did the iOS system for the iPhone compare to the
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`preexisting macOS system when the iPhone was introduced?
`
`A. Well, it was different, you know. The -- of course, the
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`internet existed when the iPhone was -- was brought out, and
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`so there was many more things you could do.
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`
`
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`But the -- the -- the iPhone is a different design point
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`than the Mac, clearly. Mac came out in 1984, before much of
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`the technology was available, and the use cases for the Mac
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`obviously are different than that for a phone. You have a
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`phone in your pocket or your pocketbook most of the time, and
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`you want instant service.
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`And so we felt that the -- both the use cases and
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`eventually the threat profile would be much greater on the
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`iPhone because of the number of iPhones that would exist in
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`the market.
`
`Q.
`
`And what steps did you take as a result of that view that
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`the threat level would be higher for the iPhone?
`
`A. We created the app review process and -- and also put in
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`an enormous amount of effort in the safety, security, and
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`privacy efforts on the phone, including some of these things
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`that I just talked about, like Application Tracking
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`Transparency and the privacy nutrition label, etc.
`
`Q.
`
`And you mentioned web apps in your earlier answer.
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`Were web apps available when the iPhone was introduced?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q. Were native apps -- that is, apps that used the iOS
`
`software -- could third parties produce native apps when the
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`iPhone was introduced?
`
`A. No.
`
`Q.
`
`And at what point was that capability added, if you can
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`
`
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`recall?
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`A.
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`It was one year later, in the -- I believe it was the
`
`middle of 2008.
`
`Q.
`
`And you referenced this earlier. Once Apple introduced
`
`that ability for third-party native apps, what steps did it
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`take to ensure that it could continue to meet its commitments
`
`to its customers?
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`A. Well, we put in app review, and so we reviewed every app
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`that went onto the store. And this was a combination of tools
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`and -- and human review, because we care so deeply about
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`the -- the safety, security, and privacy for our customers.
`
`Q.
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`Is app review effective at protecting iPhone users, in
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`your view?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q. Do you have any data you can provide the Court on the
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`effectiveness level?
`
`A. Well, you can see in third-party data that if you look at
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`the malware that's on iOS versus Android versus Windows,
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`it's -- it's literally an off-the-chart level of difference.
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`Hopefully, that's come out at some time across the -- the
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`couple weeks here.
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`Q.
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`Sir, do you believe third parties can conduct app review
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`for the iPhone as effectively as Apple can?
`
`A. No.
`
`Q.
`
`And can you explain why not?
`
`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 758 Filed 05/26/21 Page 26 of 210
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