Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 1 of 305
`
` VOLUME 12
`
`
`
`Pages 2906 - 3209
`
`UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`
`NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
`
`Before The Honorable YVONNE GONZALEZ ROGERS, Judge
`
`)
`EPIC GAMES, INC.,
` )
` Plaintiff,
`) NO. C-20-5640 YGR
` )
` vs. ) Tuesday, May 18, 2021
` )
`APPLE, INC., ) Oakland, California
`)
`) BENCH TRIAL
` Defendant.
`____________________________)
`APPLE, INC.,
`)
`)
`)
` Counterclaimant,
` vs. )
`)
`)
`)
`)
` Counter-Defendant.
`____________________________)
`
`EPIC GAMES, Inc.,
`
`
`
`REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
`
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
`For Plaintiff: CRAVATH, SWAINE & MOORE, LLP
` 825 Eighth Avenue
` New York, New York 10019
` BY: KATHERINE B. FORREST, ESQUIRE
` GARY A. BORNSTEIN, ESQUIRE
`YONATAN EVEN, ESQUIRE
`(Appearances continued.)
`
`Reported By: Diane E. Skillman, CSR 4909, RPR, FCRR
` Pamela Batalo-Hebel, CSR 3593, RMR, FCRR
` Raynee Mercado, CSR 8258 RMR, CRR, FCRR
`
`TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION
`
`CRAVATH, SWAINE & MOORE, LLP
`For Plaintiff:
` 825 Eighth Avenue
`
`
`
` VOLUME 12
`
`
`
`Pages 2906 - 3209
`
`UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`
`NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
`
`Before The Honorable YVONNE GONZALEZ ROGERS, Judge
`
`)
`EPIC GAMES, INC.,
` )
` Plaintiff,
`) NO. C-20-5640 YGR
` )
` vs. ) Tuesday, May 18, 2021
` )
`APPLE, INC., ) Oakland, California
`)
`) BENCH TRIAL
` Defendant.
`____________________________)
`APPLE, INC.,
`)
`)
`)
` Counterclaimant,
` vs. )
`)
`)
`)
`)
` Counter-Defendant.
`____________________________)
`
`EPIC GAMES, Inc.,
`
`
`
`REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
`
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
`For Plaintiff: CRAVATH, SWAINE & MOORE, LLP
` 825 Eighth Avenue
` New York, New York 10019
` BY: KATHERINE B. FORREST, ESQUIRE
` GARY A. BORNSTEIN, ESQUIRE
`YONATAN EVEN, ESQUIRE
`(Appearances continued.)
`
`Reported By: Diane E. Skillman, CSR 4909, RPR, FCRR
` Pamela Batalo-Hebel, CSR 3593, RMR, FCRR
` Raynee Mercado, CSR 8258 RMR, CRR, FCRR
`
`TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION
`
`CRAVATH, SWAINE & MOORE, LLP
`For Plaintiff:
` 825 Eighth Avenue
`
`
`
`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 2 of 305
`
`2907
`
` New York, New York 10019
` BY: LAUREN A. MOSKOWITZ, ESQUIRE
`JUSTIN C. CLARKE, ESQUIRE
`W. WES EARNHARDT, ESQUIRE
`BRENDAN BLAKE, ESQUIRE
`JIN NIU, ESQUIRE
`BRENT BYARS, ESQUIRE
`
`
`
`
`
`For Defendant: GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER
` 333 South Grand Avenue
` Los Angeles, California 90071
` BY: RICHARD J. DOREN, ESQUIRE
`DAN SWANSON, ESQUIRE
`CYNTHIA RICHMAN, ESQUIRE
`RACHEL BRASS, ESQUIRE
`
`
`
`
`
`
`GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER, LLP
`2001 Ross Avenue, Suite 1100
`Dallas, Texas 75201
` BY: VERONICA S. MOYE, ESQUIRE
`
`PAUL WEISS RIFKIND
`WHARTON & GARRISON LLP
`2001 K STREET, NW
`Washington, DC 20006
` BY: KAREN DUNN, ESQUIRE
`JESSICA E. PHILLIPS, ESQUIRE
`
`For Defendant:
`
`PAUL WEISS RIFKIND
`WHARTON & GARRISON LLP
`943 Steiner Street
`San Francisco, California 94117
` BY: ARPINE LAWYER, ESQUIRE
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 3 of 305
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`2908
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`Defendant's Witnesses:
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`Page
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` Vol.
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`Schiller, Philip
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`Direct Examination by Mr. Doren (resumed)
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`2924 12
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`Cross-Examination by Ms. Forrest
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`Redirect Examination by Mr. Doren
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`2934
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` 12
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`3142
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` 12
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`Recross-Examination by Ms. Forrest
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`3191
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` 12
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`Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Doren
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`3196
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` 12
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`Examination by Court
`
`3200
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` 12
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`Schmid, Michael
`
`Direct Examination by Mr. Srinivasan
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`3202
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` 12
`
`Plaintiff's Exhibits:
`
`Evd. Vol.
`
`056A
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`0101
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`0108
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`0505
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`0842
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`0879
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`0890
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`0897
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 4 of 305
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`2909
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`Plaintiff's Exhibits:
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`Evd. Vol.
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`1855
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 5 of 305
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`2910
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`Plaintiff's Exhibits:
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`Evd. Vol.
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`1938
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`1939
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`1947
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 6 of 305
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`2911
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`DEFENDANT's EXHIBITS
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`3060
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`3462
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`4400
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`5568
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`EVID VOL.
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`3099
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` 12
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 7 of 305
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`2912
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`TUESDAY, MAY 18, 2021
`
`8:00 a.m.
`
`P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`THE CLERK: Calling Civil Action 20-5640, Epic Games,
`
`Inc., vs. Apple, Inc.
`
`Counsel, please state your appearances. The mics are on
`
`at the tables.
`
`MS. FORREST: Good morning, Your Honor. Katherine
`
`Forrest for Epic.
`
`THE COURT: Good morning, Ms. Forrest.
`
`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Good morning, Your Honor. Lauren
`
`Moskowitz for Epic.
`
`THE COURT: Ms. Moskowitz, good morning.
`
`MS. BUI: Good morning, Your Honor. Samantha Bui for
`
`Epic.
`
`for Epic.
`
`THE COURT: Ms. Bui, good morning.
`
`MS. KLOSS: Good morning, Your Honor. Lauren Kloss
`
`THE COURT: Good morning.
`
`And, Mr. Sweeney, good morning.
`
`MR. SWEENEY: Good morning.
`
`THE COURT: Mr. Rudd, good morning.
`
`MR. RUDD: Good morning.
`
`THE COURT: Mr. Jordan, good morning.
`
`On the Apple side.
`
`MR. DOREN: Good morning, Your Honor. Richard Doren
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 8 of 305
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`2913
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`for Apple, and with me today is Kate Adams, the general
`
`counsel of Apple; Heather Grenier, the head of civil
`
`litigation; and Kate Kaso-Howard, in-house counsel.
`
`THE COURT: Good morning.
`
`MS. DUNN: Good morning, Your Honor. Karen Dunn for
`
`Apple.
`
`THE COURT: Good morning.
`
`MS. BRACHT: Good morning, Your Honor. Jennifer
`
`Bracht for Apple.
`
`THE COURT: Jennifer -- what is your last name again?
`
`Bracht?
`
`MS. BRACHT: Yes, Your Honor. Bracht, B-R-A-C-H-T.
`
`THE COURT: Okay. Welcome to the courtroom. I think
`
`I saw you yesterday, but it may have been after the morning
`
`session.
`
`MS. BRACHT: Yes, Your Honor. That's correct.
`
`THE COURT: Okay.
`
`Mr. Eltiste good morning. Did I say that right? I think
`
`I said it wrong.
`
`MR. SPALDING: Mr. Spalding, Your Honor. Good
`
`morning.
`
`MR. DOREN: It's Mr. Spalding, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Mr. Spalding. Okay.
`
`I see we have our witness back. Okay.
`
`So no media, it looks like, perhaps?
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 9 of 305
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`2914
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`Mr. Manfriedi?
`
`MR. MANFRIEDI: Yes, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Ms. Behringer, good morning.
`
`MS. BEHRINGER: Good morning, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Let's begin as we always do.
`
`Ms. Forrest, anything on your list of issues?
`
`MS. FORREST: Yes, Your Honor. There are three
`
`things, two of which I'll handle and the third will be handled
`
`by my partner, Lauren Moskowitz.
`
`THE COURT: Okay.
`
`MS. FORREST: The first is simply that we've got now
`
`the binder of deposition designations with counters. There is
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`a stipulation that the parties I believe have all but agreed
`
`on. I haven't actually received a signed copy of it from
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`Apple.
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`We could hold the binder until we receive that in case
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`there are any changes, but I told Your Honor it would be here
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`this morning so I wanted to be able to offer it.
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`THE COURT: I was hoping it wasn't going to be a
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`three-inch --
`
`MR. DOREN: I think that's four, Your Honor.
`
`MS. FORREST: It's got the documents in it,
`
`Your Honor, as well.
`
`THE COURT: And then what is the time designation,
`
`Ms. Forrest?
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 10 of 305
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`2915
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`MS. FORREST: The run time is one hour -- we'll get
`
`the exact minute.
`
`THE COURT: So an hour for Epic?
`
`MS. FORREST: It's -- yes. Let me just make sure
`
`we've got the exact time.
`
`MS. KLOSS: One hour and three minutes, Your Honor.
`
`MS. FORREST: For Epic. And then I think just -- how
`
`many minutes for Apple? It's very little.
`
`MS. KLOSS: I'll find the time for Apple, Your Honor.
`
`MS. FORREST: There is a small amount of time for
`
`Apple as well.
`
`THE COURT: Okay.
`
`MS. FORREST: Would you prefer I hold this until the
`
`stipulation is signed?
`
`THE COURT: Sure. That's fine.
`
`MS. FORREST: All right.
`
`The second issue, Your Honor, has to do with a document
`
`that we found last night after the testimony of Mr. Schiller,
`
`and it relates to the Small Business Program. I don't want to
`
`say much more about it because there's an issue between the
`
`parties as to whether or not it's privileged, at least in
`
`part. We've conferred on it, and I think there's agreement
`
`that -- I'll hand it up to Your Honor -- that -- it's PX --
`
`marked for identification PX1902. So there was an agreement
`
`on a piece of it not being privileged. That agreement has
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 11 of 305
`
`2916
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`been withdrawn I understand now from Mr. Doren.
`
`Our view of PX1902 is that while it has as the top email
`
`the general counsel of Apple, Ms. Adams, the information under
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`the very first paragraph does not appear to be privileged
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`information. Indeed, it starts with a phrase that is
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`suggestive of not being asked for legal advice.
`
`I do agree that the paragraph below that under "privileged
`
`and confidential," there is one paragraph beginning with the
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`word "there." I believe that is privileged.
`
`However, the email below that from Mr. Schiller consistent
`
`with Judge Hixson's rulings on some other documents relating
`
`to the new business -- Small Business Program we don't believe
`
`is privileged. And --
`
`THE COURT: So I haven't read this yet. Is there a
`
`debate about privilege?
`
`MR. DOREN: There is, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: If there is, then what I would suggest is
`
`rather than me reading it, we ask Judge Hixson to rule on it
`
`in an expedited way, and if you're agreeable to living with
`
`his decision, then it can be redacted out to the extent that
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`there is privilege so that it's not considered by -- I mean,
`
`look, I can read it and then not consider it. We do those
`
`kinds of things all the time. But if you're concerned, then
`
`we can send it to Hixson. If not, I'll just decide. But how
`
`do you want to proceed?
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 12 of 305
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`2917
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`MS. FORREST: Your Honor, I don't have any problem
`
`with it going to Judge Hixson so long as if Judge Hixson has a
`
`portion of the ruling that allows me to question on at least a
`
`portion of the document, if my examination of Mr. Schiller has
`
`concluded, that I would be able to examine Mr. Schiller after
`
`the fact on the document. It would be very limited. It
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`happens to fit in with something that I would be dealing with
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`obviously early -- relatively early in my examination, but I'm
`
`content to avoid it for the moment.
`
`THE COURT: So what page are we -- what page --
`
`MR. DOREN: Your Honor, if I may be heard?
`
`THE COURT: You may.
`
`MR. DOREN: So the discussion this morning -- I was
`
`presented this document about 15 minutes ago. I accept
`
`counsel's representation they found it last night.
`
`The first email in the chain is --
`
`THE COURT: The one at 12:46 a.m?
`
`MR. DOREN: Actually, Your Honor, I'm at the back of
`
`the chain but the first in sequence. It's from Mr. Schiller.
`
`My proposal to counsel, subject to an agreement, was that
`
`we would permit this first note to be used with Mr. Schiller.
`
`THE COURT: The one from 1:32 p.m.?
`
`MR. DOREN: Yes, ma'am.
`
`THE COURT: Okay.
`
`MR. DOREN: Then the next email in the chain is from
`
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 13 of 305
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`2918
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`Doug Vetter, who is an in-house lawyer. He is adding a
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`gentleman named Kyle, who is also an in-house lawyer.
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`Mr. Schiller then responds with reactions and further input to
`
`these communications from Doug Vetter. There is then a note
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`from Lisa Jackson, who is in the government affairs area, and
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`last in this chain is an email from Kate Adams, the general
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`counsel of Apple.
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`So from our perspective, there's at least an argument as
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`to the first note from Mr. Schiller which he frames as an
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`update. After that, it is a back-and-forth between in-house
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`counsel, and to the extent Mr. Schiller participates in that
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`back-and-forth, that doesn't make it any less privileged.
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`MS. FORREST: And just on the substantive points,
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`since I really hadn't said anything on the substance, our
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`position would be that the Mr. Vetter portion of the email to
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`which Mr. Doren has pointed, which is on the bottom of page
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`ending 817, that that is not reflective of legal advice. The
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`fact that a lawyer is on something can, in certain instances,
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`not necessarily mean that it's either giving or soliciting
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`legal advice and that it's not.
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`And certainly the portion above that from Mr. Schiller
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`appears to be simply just a recitation of a plan relating
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`directly to the new -- to the Small Business Program.
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`MR. DOREN: Well, while I certainly agree that simply
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`having a lawyer's name on a document does not make it
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 14 of 305
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`2919
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`privileged, when there is a back-and-forth with lawyers within
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`the company which are capped with observations from the
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`general counsel, that falls pretty squarely within the four
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`corners of the privilege.
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`THE COURT: Okay. Hold on just a minute.
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` (Pause in proceedings.)
`
`THE COURT: All right. I have reached out to
`
`Judge Hixson. Let's see if he is available in response.
`
`Okay. What next?
`
`MR. DOREN: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`MS. FORREST: Your Honor, we do now have the time for
`
`the Apple portion of the deposition designations, and it's
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`thirty-two minutes.
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`THE COURT: Okay.
`
`MS. FORREST: So it's one are hour and three minutes
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`for Epic and thirty-two minutes for Apple.
`
`I will now turn it over, Your Honor, to my colleague,
`
`Ms. Moskowitz, who has an issue.
`
`THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
`
`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. Lauren
`
`Moskowitz again for Epic.
`
`A couple of issues with respect to the next witness and
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`the documents that were disclosed and demonstratives that were
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`disclosed by Apple in connection with that.
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`THE COURT: The next witness is who?
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 15 of 305
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`2920
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`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Mr. Schmid, Michael Schmid.
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`THE COURT: And who is Michael Schmid?
`
`MS. MOSKOWITZ: He works within the App Store,
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`Business Development Group.
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`THE COURT: Okay.
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`MR. DOREN: Your Honor, before we launch into this,
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`could I request that these issues be addressed prior to
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`Mr. Schmid's testimony when the attorney who is most suited to
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`discuss these issues is available?
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`THE COURT: Okay. How much longer do we have with --
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`give me the thumbnail, Ms. Moskowitz.
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`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. Thumbnail is they are moving to
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`admit Mr. Schmid's declaration that was submitted to the Court
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`in connection with the preliminary injunction which is just
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`classic hearsay and is not able to be used by Apple. A big
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`issue is about the demonstratives that they disclosed for
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`Mr. Schmid, and the thumbnail is that it appears that they're
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`going to use Mr. Schmid to do what they couldn't do on
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`redirect and couldn't do with their revision on Mr. Hitt's
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`written testimony, and they are going to use Mr. Schmid to
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`walk through what can and cannot be done on websites when he
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`was never disclosed in the initial disclosures for anything
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`along those lines, and this is a -- this is a surprise, and it
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`was dumped on us yesterday for the first time.
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`So he's not -- he's not a proper witness to be talking
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 16 of 305
`
`2921
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`about what can and cannot be done on websites within --
`
`THE COURT: I have received lots of evidence like
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`that.
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`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Yes.
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`THE COURT: That is, we walked through the Fortnite
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`website, we've -- so --
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`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Yes.
`
`THE COURT: -- I'm not sure I agree with you on that
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`topic.
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`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Yes. Well, he was not disclosed as a
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`witness with that subject matter in terms of what can and
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`cannot be done on the web browser. He is a business
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`development employee who works with developers, and his
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`initial disclosures were focused on his relationship with Epic
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`and his relationship with developers, and he doesn't have --
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`he was not disclosed as having personal knowledge of what can
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`and cannot be done. That was Mr. Hitt's expert testimony. He
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`was disclosed on it. He was examined on it.
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`THE COURT: One doesn't have to be an expert to
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`figure out how a web works. So -- and, frankly, I have lots
`
`of questions still. So I'm not -- I mean, I might give you
`
`some time to prep on cross and require that he come back, but
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`I'm not sure that I would strike that on that basis.
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`The declaration, that sounds like it's not appropriate.
`
`MR. DOREN: And, Your Honor, Mr. Schmid is -- he
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 17 of 305
`
`2922
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`works in developer relations. He is well-versed in all
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`aspects, as one would expect, since he works with gaming
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`developers in the different elements of games and how people
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`access them, and to suggest that he somehow wasn't disclosed
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`to be able to address the topic, which is his core competency
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`as an employee of Apple, would be a very fine read.
`
`THE COURT: Yeah, I -- look. There are -- there seem
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`to be some discrepancies in terms of what the Epic witnesses
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`have said can and cannot be done and what is in the record,
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`and I'd just like to get clarity, so I would probably allow
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`the second, not the first.
`
`MS. MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`MR. DOREN: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Okay. We're at 8:15.
`
`It looks like I have at least one other of the pool
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`reporters now. Is that Mr. Allyn or Mr. Sisco or both? I
`
`guess I see two now.
`
`MR. ALLYN: Yes. Mr. Allyn.
`
`THE COURT: Welcome to the courtroom, gentlemen.
`
`All right. Let's continue.
`
`Mr. Schiller, if you will come back.
`
`Good morning, sir.
`
`THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honor.
`
`THE CLERK: Line 2 is down, the press line.
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`THE COURT: Let's hold on.
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 18 of 305
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`2923
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`I understand, counsel, that there is a problem with one of
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`the phone lines.
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`(Pause in proceedings)
`
`THE COURT: Okay. So we'll start the clock running
`
`here, Mr. Doren, at 8:21. Proceed.
`
`MR. DOREN: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`Your Honor, just cleaning up a couple of exhibits, I don't
`
`believe that I moved to enter Exhibit 5567, which was one of
`
`the two Fortnite emails, and I would make that motion now.
`
`THE COURT: 5567. No objection?
`
`MS. FORREST: No objection, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Admitted.
`
`MR. DOREN: And then, Your Honor, secondly is the
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`excerpt from the video which we handed up yesterday which is
`
`Exhibit 3462, and I would also move that exhibit into
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`evidence.
`
`MS. FORREST: No objection, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Okay. I had actually -- I checked my
`
`notes. I had admitted 5567 yesterday so today I will admit
`
`3462.
`
`MR. DOREN: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`(Defense Exhibit DX3462 received in evidence)
`
`THE COURT: Proceed.
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 19 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
`
`2924
`
`PHILIP SCHILLER,
`
`called as a witness for the Defendant, having been previously
`
`duly sworn, testified further as follows:
`
`DIRECT EXAMINATION (resumed)
`
`BY MR. DOREN:
`
`Q.
`
`Good morning, Mr. Schiller.
`
`A.
`
`Good morning.
`
`Q.
`
`You have up in front of you the demonstrative that we
`
`finished the day with yesterday, and I believe we had
`
`discussed these various innovations and investments up through
`
`ReplayKit.
`
`Sir, are you familiar with ARKit?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`When was ARKit released by Apple?
`
`A.
`
`In 2017.
`
`Q.
`
`What did ARKit do?
`
`A.
`
`It is software technology for app developers to build
`
`applications that take advantage of augmented reality within
`
`their applications.
`
`Q.
`
`And how do developers use ARKit?
`
`A.
`
`Well, there are a number of ways. Advanced developers can
`
`take advantage of the APIs in ARKit to build their own
`
`applications, and with ARKit, there is a number of advanced
`
`technologies that allow for placing computer-generated
`
`imaginaries in the real world as seen through your iPhone's
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 20 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
`
`2925
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`camera, and it does many very technical cool things like
`
`what's called people occlusion.
`
`So, for example, that means that if you are throwing a
`
`ball in space and it goes behind a real person, the graphics
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`will -- of that rendering of that ball will go behind the
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`person that you see, and that's all handled by ARKit.
`
`Q.
`
`And, Mr. Schiller, I'd like to show a demonstrative of
`
`ARKit and ask you, please, to narrate what we're seeing.
`
`A.
`
`Yes. This is an app in the App Store called Animal Safari
`
`AR, and it allows you to place real life-size animals around
`
`you, in your yard, in your home. So what we're seeing here is
`
`an example of a user would be holding up their phone and
`
`looking in their yard and placing a lion and a penguin, a
`
`zebra and here even an elephant that is properly lit by the
`
`angle of the sun, casting shadows on the ground. In this
`
`learning and playful app, you can feed the animals, there are
`
`appropriate kinds of food, and learn what they look like.
`
`Q.
`
`Can you tell us which parts of that video were real and
`
`which were augmented reality?
`
`A.
`
`Yes. Everything you see in that app is real except the
`
`animals, so the ground is your patio, the yard is your yard,
`
`with these animals now placed within them.
`
`Q.
`
`And is ARKit relevant to game developers?
`
`A.
`
`I believe so.
`
`Q.
`
`And does ARKit improve the attractiveness of the Apple App
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 21 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
`
`2926
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`Store as a digital transaction platform for games?
`
`A.
`
`I think so, yes.
`
`Q.
`
`And have any new versions of ARKit been released since
`
`2017?
`
`A.
`
`Yes. We're up to Version 4 of ARKit.
`
`Q.
`
`And so how often has it been undated?
`
`A.
`
`Every year.
`
`Q.
`
`Next, sir -- or actually skipping over Core ML for a
`
`moment, we see RealityKit and Reality Composer.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`When were those two APIs released?
`
`A.
`
`Almost two years ago now in 2019.
`
`Q.
`
`What do they assist developers with?
`
`A.
`
`So these are further advancements in our tools for
`
`augmented reality. RealityKit is technology you would place
`
`in your app to make it easier for the developer to take
`
`advantage of these ARKit capabilities.
`
`THE COURT: Can I interrupt? I have heard back from
`
`Judge Hixson, and he is able to deal with this issue this
`
`morning, so if you could have lawyers from each side join his
`
`dial-in, I can give that you number right now. Can I tell him
`
`they will be there in about ten minutes?
`
`MR. DOREN: Yes, Your Honor.
`
`MS. FORREST: Sure. Yes, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Okay. So his dial in is 888-684-8852,
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 22 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
`
`2927
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`Passcode 2925506. I'm sure you have his email. You can send
`
`him the document by email.
`
`MR. DOREN: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Do you need the number again or do you
`
`have it?
`
`MR. DOREN: I have, Your Honor, 888-684-8582 and the
`
`passcode of 2925506.
`
`THE COURT: That's correct.
`
`MR. DOREN: Thank you.
`
`May I proceed, Your Honor?
`
`THE COURT: You may. Thank you.
`
`BY MR. DOREN:
`
`Q.
`
`Mr. Schiller, I believe you were discussing RealityKit and
`
`Reality Composer. Can you please describe those kits?
`
`A.
`
`Yes. These are both advancements for ARKit, and they
`
`allow it to make it even easier for perhaps the most -- not
`
`the -- an advanced developer, someone who perhaps hasn't
`
`worked with 3D objects before in their application
`
`development.
`
`So RealityKit is a library, a framework that you would put
`
`into your application to then make it easier for you to use AR
`
`without having to write all of that yourself.
`
`Reality Composer is actually an application, a tool, that
`
`you use as a developer to construct the 3D scene that you want
`
`to use as augmented reality, so it's a tool that runs on the
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 23 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
`
`2928
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`Mac, on the iPhone, on the iPad, and you use it to assemble
`
`the scene you want in your application.
`
`Q.
`
`And do RealityKit and Reality Composer -- are they
`
`relevant to game developers?
`
`A.
`
`I think so, particularly younger developers and/or smaller
`
`developers as they're getting started and want to learn to do
`
`3D-augmented reality applications and games.
`
`Q.
`
`And do RealityKit and Reality Composer make the Apple App
`
`Store more attractive as a digital game transaction platform?
`
`A.
`
`I think so.
`
`Q.
`
`And let's circle back, sir, to Core ML.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`First of all, are you familiar with that API?
`
`A.
`
`I am.
`
`Q.
`
`And when was it released by Apple?
`
`A.
`
`In 2017.
`
`Q.
`
`And has Apple continued to invest in improving Core ML?
`
`A.
`
`We have.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`And can you describe what Core ML does, please.
`
`Yes. The ML stands for machine learning, which we've
`
`spoken about briefly a bit yesterday. It is a branch of
`
`augmented reality -- excuse me -- of artificial intelligence
`
`that allows to you write software that would be very difficult
`
`to do with traditional software programming techniques. These
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`are tools that help software predict what may happen and then
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 24 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
`
`2929
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`respond appropriately for the user to help them do things not
`
`possible with traditional software.
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`A simple example would be you want your application to
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`look through a photo the user took and help them find pictures
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`of their dog or of dogs in general, so what you do with
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`machine learning with this advanced software, you create a
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`model, and that model says here's a whole bunch of pictures of
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`dogs. You now as a software know what dogs look like, and you
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`put that in your app and future photos of other dogs that can
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`then predict and say oh, there are more photos of dogs because
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`of the machine learning library that you've created.
`
`Q.
`
`And is Core ML relevant to game developers?
`
`A.
`
`Oh, I think so. I think that we are going to see more and
`
`more uses of predictive machine learning technology in
`
`different kinds of experiences, including games.
`
`Q.
`
`Sir, I'd like to show you a demonstrative of Core ML and
`
`ask you to tell the Court what we're seeing.
`
`A.
`
`Yes. This is a really fun app to help somebody who is a
`
`basketball player become a better shooter, and what you do --
`
`THE COURT: I did not know this was coming.
`
`THE WITNESS: And I did not know you were going to be
`
`possibly interested in this.
`
`It's called HomeCourt. You hold the phone up, and we are
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`seeing what the phone is seeing. It is watching a shooter
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`shoot across the court, just taking shots, and in realtime
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 25 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
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`it's able to see the person, see the basket, see the ball,
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`measure the arm angle, the leg angle, the release angle of the
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`shot, how long it takes to release the shot, how fast the --
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`the shot is going, what height it is that the shooter is at
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`when they release. These things would be impossible for a
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`coach to measure in realtime while someone is shooting.
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`Probably have to go back and analyze video for hours to do
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`this.
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`And now on the iPhone with machine learning technology,
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`the developer can create an app to do that right away in
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`realtime, and this is an app that's on the store. It's really
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`great.
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`BY MR. DOREN:
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`Q.
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`That was my next question, sir. Is what we just saw from
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`an app that is currently available on the App Store?
`
`A.
`
`It is.
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`Q.
`
`What is the name of that app?
`
`A.
`
`HomeCourt.
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`Q.
`
`Has Apple continued to invest in improving Core ML?
`
`A.
`
`We have.
`
`Q.
`
`And has the expense of developing any of these APIs and
`
`SDK kits that we've discussed -- has any of that been
`
`allocated to the App Store?
`
`A.
`
`It has not.
`
`Q.
`
`Sir, in looking at these examples and the other topics we
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 26 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
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`2931
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`discussed yesterday, have we covered everything that Apple has
`
`done to benefit app developers and App Store customers since
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`2008?
`
`A.
`
`Oh, definitely not.
`
`Q.
`
`Can you just give us an overview, please, of the types of
`
`efforts that Apple makes to benefit developers and users?
`
`A.
`
`Well, of course we make hardware with features that are
`
`designed to help developers and users have new experiences,
`
`new capabilities. Every year we advance those. We have core
`
`software features, as we see here, and many more that are
`
`designed to assist developers as they create whatever their
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`vision, their dream is of applications and tools for users.
`
`It all adds up to all of us as users, over a billion
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`people, having better software, better experiences that we can
`
`have on our devices.
`
`We try to bring these out in ways that help developers
`
`create them with documentation and training. We put on
`
`events, as we've discussed. We have people assigned to assist
`
`developers. We actually do consulting engineering where we
`
`sit down and help them with their code. We have a lab for
`
`helping with user interface design to help them make
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`better-looking applications. We have tours we do around the
`
`world where our teams go around in countries to help make sure
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`developers can learn directly about these technologies. We
`
`have built facilities around the world. We talked about our
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`Case 4:20-cv-05640-YGR Document 755 Filed 05/26/21 Page 27 of 305
`SCHILLER - DIRECT RESUMED - DOREN
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`2932
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`accelerator labs.
`
`We have schools we've created to help in both the high
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`school and college level around the world in Brazil, in
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`Indonesia, in Italy, in China, everywhere we can to help
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`create the next g
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