Deposition of:
`James T. Geier
`
`September 11, 2019
`
`In the Matter of:
`Ingenico Inc. Vs. Ioengine LLC
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`888.777.6690 | cs-midatlantic@veritext.com | 215-241-1000
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRAIL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
` - - -
`
` INGENICO INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` V.
`
` IOENGINE, LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` IPR2019-00416
`
` Patent 8,539,047
`
` - - -
`
` September 11, 2019
`
` - - -
`
` Videotape deposition of JAMES T.
`
` GEIER, taken at the offices of Dechert LLP,
`
` Cira Centre, 2929 Arch Street, Philadelphia,
`
` Pennsylvania 19104, beginning at 8:58 a.m.,
`
` before LINDA ROSSI-RIOS, a Federally Approved
`
` RPR, CCR and Notary Public.
`
` - - -
`
` VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
`
`23
`
` MID-ATLANTIC REGION
`
` 1801 Market Street - Suite 1800
`
`24
`
` Philadelphia, PA 19103
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`Page 2
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S :
`
` O n b e h a l f o f t h e P e t i t i o n e r , I n g e n i c o I n c .
` S U N S T E I N
` B Y : R O B E R T M . A S H E R , E S Q U I R E
` 1 2 5 S u m m e r S t r e e t
` B o s t o n , M A 0 2 1 1 0
` 6 1 7 . 4 4 3 . 9 2 9 2
` r a s h e r @ s u n s t e i n l a w . c o m
`
` O n b e h a l f o f t h e P a t e n t O w n e r , I o e n g i n e ,
` L L C
` D E C H E R T L L P
` B Y : M I C H A E L A . F I S H E R , E S Q U I R E
` C i r a C e n t r e
` 2 9 2 9 A r c h S t .
` P h i l a d e l p h i a , P A 1 9 1 0 4 - 2 8 0 8
` 2 1 5 . 9 9 4 . 2 0 0 0
` m i c h a e l . f i s h e r @ d e c h e r t . c o m
`
` D E C H E R T L L P
` B Y : G R E G O R Y T . C H U E B O N , E S Q U I R E
` T h r e e B r y a n t P a r k
` 1 9 0 5 A v e n u e o f t h e A m e r i c a s
` N e w Y o r k , N Y 1 0 0 3 6
` 2 1 2 . 6 9 8 . 3 5 0 0
` g r e g . c h u e b o n @ d e c h e r t . c o m
`
` A L S O P R E S E N T :
`
` R U S S S T R A I N , V i d e o g r a p h e r
`
` - - -
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`Page 3
`
` I N D E X
`
` W I T N E S S P A G E
`
`J A M E S T . G E I E R
`
` B y M r . F i s h e r 7
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
` M A R K E D D E S C R I P T I O N P A G E
`
`E x h i b i t 2 0 9 8 D e c l a r a t i o n o f K e v i n 2 4 0
` B u t l e r , P h D
`
` P R E V I O U S L Y M A R K E D E X H I B I T S
` M A R K E D D E S C R I P T I O N P A G E
`P a p e r 1 P e t i t i o n 2 0
`E x h i b i t 1 0 0 1 8 , 5 3 9 , 0 4 7 P a t e n t 3 9
`E x h i b i t 1 0 0 2 D e c l a r a t i o n o f J a m e s 1 1
` T . G e i e r
`
`E x h i b i t 1 0 0 3 I i d a P a t e n t 1 1 1
` A p p l i c a t i o n
` P u b l i c a t i o n
`
`E x h i b i t 1 0 0 4 G e n s k e P a t e n t 2 2 6
` A p p l i c a t i o n
` P u b l i c a t i o n
`
`E x h i b i t 1 0 2 0 E x c e r p t o f M e r r i a m 3 5
` W e b s t e r ' s C o l l e g i a t e
` D i c t i o n a r y E l e v e n t h
` E d i t i o n
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

` D E P O S I T I O N S U P P O R T I N D E X
`
` D I R E C T I O N T O W I T N E S S N O T T O A N S W E R
`
`Page 4
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` P a g e L i n e
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` 2 6 5 1 4
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` 2 6 6 1 4
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` R E Q U E S T F O R P R O D U C T I O N O F D O C U M E N T S
`
` P a g e L i n e
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` ( N o n e )
`
` S T I P U L A T I O N S
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` P a g e L i n e
`
` ( N o n e )
`
` Q U E S T I O N S M A R K E D
`
` P a g e L i n e
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` ( N o n e )
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 5
`
` - - -
`
` VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
`
` We're now on the record. The time is
`
` approximately 8:58 a.m., Wednesday,
`
` September 11, 2019.
`
` Please note that the
`
` microphones are sensitive and may pick
`
` up whispers, private conversations,
`
` and cellular interference. Audio and
`
` video recording will continue to take
`
` place unless all parties agree to go
`
` off the record.
`
` This is media unit 1 of the
`
` video recorded deposition of James T.
`
` Geier taken by counsel for the patent
`
` owner in the matter of Ingenico
`
` Incorporated versus IOENGINE, LLC
`
` filed in the United States Patent and
`
` Trade Office, Case Number IPR2019-00416.
`
` This deposition is being held at the
`
` law office of Dechert LLP, located at
`
` 2929 Arch Street, Philadelphia, PA.
`
` My name is Russ Strain from
`
` Veritext. I'm the videographer.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 6
`
` The court reporter is Linda
`
` Rossi from Veritext.
`
` I'm not related to any party in
`
` this action nor am I am financially
`
` interested in the outcome.
`
` Counsel will state their
`
` appearance and their affiliation for
`
` the record, beginning with the
`
` noticing attorney.
`
` MR. FISHER: Mike Fisher from
`
` Dechert, representing the patent
`
` owner, IOENGINE.
`
` MR. CHUEBON: This is Greg
`
` Chuebon from Dechert, also representing
`
` the patent owner, IOENGINE.
`
` MR. ASHER: Robert Asher from
`
` Sunstein Kann Murphy & Timbers,
`
` representing the petitioner, Ingenico
`
` Inc.
`
` VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
`
` reporter, please, swear in the
`
` witness.
`
` - - -
`
` JAMES T. GEIER, after having
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

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`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 7
`
` been duly sworn, was examined and
`
` testified as follows:
`
` - - -
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` - - -
`
` BY MR. FISHER:
`
` Q. Could you, please, state your
`
` full name for the record?
`
` A. Yes. It's James Thomas Geier.
`
` Q. Have you ever been deposed
`
` before?
`
` A. Yes, I have.
`
` Q. About how many times?
`
` A. I don't know the exact number,
`
` but I'd say around 20 times.
`
` Q. So you're probably familiar
`
` with the procedure, but I'll just let you
`
` know that I will ask you questions and my
`
` questions and your answers will be recorded
`
` by the court reporter here. Do you understand?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. If you don't understand a
`
` question, please let me know and I'll try to
`
` clarify it. Okay?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 8
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. If you ever need to take a
`
` break, please let me know. But if I've just
`
` asked a question, please, finish your answer
`
` and then we'll work out what to do about a
`
` break. Okay?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Now, you may answer a question
`
` and later on you may think of something that
`
` you want to add to your previous answer or
`
` you may want to correct or clarify your
`
` previous answer. If that happens, please let
`
` me know and we'll give you a chance to add to
`
` or correct your earlier response. Okay?
`
` A. Sure. Thank you.
`
` Q. How are you feeling generally
`
` today?
`
` A. Very well.
`
` Q. Are you taking any medication
`
` that might make it difficult for you to
`
` understand and answer my questions today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Is there any reason that you
`
` might not able to understand my questions and
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 9
`
` a n s w e r t h e m t r u t h f u l l y a n d c o m p l e t e l y t o d a y ?
`
` A . N o .
`
` Q . A r e y o u r e p r e s e n t e d b y c o u n s e l
`
` h e r e t o d a y ?
`
` A . Y e s .
`
` Q . A n d w h o i s t h a t ?
`
` A . M r . B o b A s h e r .
`
` Q . H a v e y o u b e e n r e t a i n e d b y a n y
`
` o f t h e p a r t i e s i n t h e c a s e s b e t w e e n I O E N G I N E
`
` a n d I n g e n i c o ?
`
` A . C e r t a i n l y w i t h I n g e n i c o , I ' m
`
` r e t a i n e d t o w o r k o n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r c a s e . I
`
` d o n ' t k n o w t h e o t h e r c a s e s t h a t t h e y ' v e
`
` p r o v i d e d - - o r t h a t t h e y ' v e f i l e d .
`
` Q . H o w m a n y c a s e s h a v e y o u b e e n
`
` r e t a i n e d f o r f o r I n g e n i c o ?
`
` A . I ' m w o r k i n g o n t h e I P R s . S o
`
` t h e r e ' s s e v e r a l I P R s t h a t I ' m w o r k i n g o n .
`
` Q . D o y o u k n o w h o w m a n y ?
`
` A . I ' d s a y t h e r e ' s t h r e e o r f o u r .
`
` I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y . I ' d h a v e t o l o o k
`
` b a c k a t m y f i l e s t o s e e w h i c h o n e s w e d i d .
`
` Q . A r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e c a s e s
`
` b e t w e e n P a y P a l a n d I O E N G I N E ?
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

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`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 10
`
` A. I'm not familiar with that, no.
`
` I may have heard of it before, but I've not
`
` been involved in that part. I'm just working
`
` on the IPR with Ingenico.
`
` Q. So you haven't been retained by
`
` PayPal in any capacity, have you?
`
` A. No, not that I -- no. I'm not
`
` actively working on a case with PayPal, no.
`
` Q. Are you being compensated for
`
` your work on this case?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And how is your compensation
`
` determined?
`
` A. I'm not sure if I understand
`
` that question. Do you mean how much am I
`
` paid or how do I -- is it based on hours or
`
` fixed rate or what do you mean by that?
`
` Q. Why don't we start with what's
`
` the mechanism by which your compensation is
`
` calculated?
`
` A. It's based on number of hours I
`
` worked on a case or worked on this particular
`
` project.
`
` Q. How much are you being compensated?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 11
`
` A. It's an hourly rate. Are you
`
` asking for hourly rate or the total?
`
` Q. Yes.
`
` A. Okay. The hourly rate is $350
`
` per hour.
`
` Q. How does the outcome of the
`
` case affect your compensation?
`
` A. It doesn't affect it.
`
` MR. FISHER: I guess it's
`
` already -- can we pause for a moment?
`
` VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record
`
` at 9:04.
`
` - - -
`
` (A recess occurred.)
`
` - - -
`
` VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the
`
` record. 9:04.
`
` - - -
`
` (Exhibit 1002, Declaration of
`
` James T. Geier, was previously marked
`
` for identification.)
`
` - - -
`
` BY MR. FISHER:
`
` Q. You've been handed Exhibit 1002.
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`24
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 12
`
` Do you recognize this document?
`
` A. Yes, this appears to be my
`
` Declaration with the '047 patent.
`
` Q. Can you, please, turn to pages
`
` 13 and 14 of Exhibit 1002, specifically
`
` paragraph 28.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Did you propose a definition
`
` for the term interactive user interface
`
` there?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What is your definition?
`
` A. As I state in paragraph 28,
`
` it's the last sentence, it says, "Therefore
`
` an 'interactive user interface' as used in
`
` the...," plural, "...'047 patent claims would
`
` have been understood to mean a display with
`
` which a user may interact to result in the
`
` computer taking action responsibly."
`
` Q. Now, when you refer to the
`
` display in the computer, are you referring to
`
` the display of that computer?
`
` A. I'm not sure if I understand
`
` your question. Of that computer, are you
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 13
`
` referring to the computer I'm referring to in
`
` the definition?
`
` Q. Yeah.
`
` A. Well, the computer can be a
`
` computer just about anywhere. I mean, you're
`
` interacting with a display that's going to
`
` result in the computer taking action
`
` responsibly. So it could be a computer, just
`
` a computer. It's a very broad statement.
`
` Q. So you're not sure whether the
`
` computer has any relationship to that display.
`
` Is that correct?
`
` A. I would not necessarily, no,
`
` not quite. There's a display with which a
`
` user may interact, result in a computer
`
` taking action responsibly. It just means
`
` that there's a computer that acts responsibly
`
` based on the user interacting through a
`
` display or with a display. That's exactly
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` what it says.
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` Q. If you'll look at page 13.
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` A. Page 13 of my Declaration?
`
` Q. Yes, sorry. Page 13 of your
`
` Declaration, starting at the fourth line from
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`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
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`

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`JAMES T. GEIER
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`Page 14
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` the bottom and going to the word "computer"
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` on page 14, the first line. You refer to a
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` document, a publication or a glossary, I
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` guess. Let me withdraw and rephrase that.
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` If you look starting from the
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` fourth line from the bottom on page 13 and go
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` to the first line of page 14, you refer to a
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` computer glossary. Correct?
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` A. I'm referring to the computer
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` glossary starting in -- it's in paragraph 28
`
` on page 13. I referred to the Computer
`
` Glossary Ninth Edition 2001, et cetera. So
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` I'm referring to that computer glossary.
`
` Q. And you say that a user
`
` interface has to include a combination of
`
` elements such as menus, screen design,
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` keyboard commands, command language and help
`
` screens --
`
` MR. ASHER: Objection. Form.
`
` BY MR. FISHER:
`
` Q. -- which create the way a user
`
` interacts with a computer. Correct?
`
` A. Well, I'm saying exactly what
`
` it says here, is that a user interface
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`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 15
`
` includes a combination of elements such as
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` menus, screen design, keyboard commands. I'm
`
` giving examples there. Is it -- I'm saying
`
` such as, but it would -- the user interface
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` would include a combination of elements. And
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` I'm just giving examples of what some of
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` those could be.
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` Q. I mean, the point is the
`
` interacting use -- sorry.
`
` The point is that the
`
` interactive user interface has to have
`
` elements with which the user interacts.
`
` Correct?
`
` A. Well, there's going to be some
`
` sort of element that the user is going to
`
` interact with. I mean, there's going to be a
`
` display that there's something they can
`
` interact with. You know, these are just
`
` examples. There's other examples in
`
` different relevant documents such as the '047
`
` patent. And I -- you know, what some
`
` examples can be. But these are just some
`
` examples. This is not exhaustive of all the
`
` examples of what these particular elements
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 16
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` could be. There's others as well. I can
`
` give you examples of those, if you want, but
`
` I'm just trying to --
`
` Q. Not necessary.
`
` A. I don't want this to be
`
` understood as if these are the only types of
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` elements that you can interface with, that
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` the user would -- user interface would
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` include. As, for example, there's cursors,
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` there's those -- the '047 patent goes into
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` some examples as well what some of these
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` could be.
`
` Q. All right. Based on your
`
` definition, can you give me an example of a
`
` user interface in which the user does not
`
` interact with the display?
`
` A. Well, I want to make sure I
`
` understand what you mean by interact with the
`
` display. I have an understanding what that
`
` is, but I want to be sure that I'm answering
`
` that within the right context.
`
` Q. Your own definition refers to a
`
` display with which a user may interact.
`
` Right?
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`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 17
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` A. Right. There would be some
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` sort of interaction with the display and that
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` would be resulting in some computer taking
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` action. You know, there would be some action
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` related to that with that interaction. I can
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` give you examples of what that could be.
`
` Q. That's not necessary.
`
` A. You know, I could help you
`
` clarify, I think you're asking me what that's
`
` meaning, and I can clarify that with examples.
`
` Q. That's not necessary. I guess
`
` I'm just asking if as we sit here today you
`
` can come up with an example of a user
`
` interface that's not interactive?
`
` A. We're kind of twisting some of
`
` these words a little bit. But I can explain
`
` this and maybe define these as we go. You're
`
` using a user interface that's not interactive?
`
` Q. No, that's not what I'm saying.
`
` A. Just restate that question and
`
` I think I can answer it for you.
`
` Q. I'm not asking for examples of
`
` user interfaces that are interactive. You
`
` understand that, right?
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`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
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`Page 18
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` A . O k a y . I t h i n k I u n d e r s t a n d
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` t h a t f r o m y o u r q u e s t i o n .
`
` Q . I ' m a s k i n g i f y o u c a n c o m e u p
`
` w i t h a s i n g l e e x a m p l e o f a u s e r i n t e r f a c e
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` t h a t i s n o t i n t e r a c t i v e ?
`
` A . W e l l , I c a n a n s w e r t h a t , b u t I
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` w a n t t o c l a r i f y w h a t I ' m m e a n i n g b y t h o s e
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` t e r m s b e f o r e I d o t h a t . A g a i n , p u t c o n t e x t
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` a r o u n d i t . U s e r i n t e r f a c e , a s I ' v e d e f i n e d
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` h e r e , e n a b l e s t h e u s e r t o i n t e r a c t w i t h a
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` c o m p u t e r . T h a t ' s w h a t I ' v e d e f i n e d . Y o u
`
` s a i d u s e r i n t e r f a c e t h a t ' s n o t i n t e r a c t i v e .
`
` A n d , f o r e x a m p l e , y o u c o u l d h a v e a u s e r
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` i n t e r f a c e t h a t ' s j u s t d i s p l a y i n g s o m e t h i n g .
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` A n d i t ' s a n i n t e r f a c e w i t h t h e - - f o r a u s e r
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` t o i n t e r a c t b y j u s t w a t c h i n g t h e d i s p l a y .
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` T h e y ' r e n o t i n p u t t i n g a n y t h i n g t h a t ' s g o i n g
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` t o r e s u l t i n t h e c o m p u t e r t a k i n g a c t i o n
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` r e s p o n s i b l y . B u t a n i n t e r a c t i v e u s e r
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` i n t e r f a c e w o u l d p r o v i d e t h a t p a r t i c u l a r
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` a c t i o n t h a t ' s r e s p o n s i b l y .
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` S o a u s e r i n t e r f a c e w o u l d b e
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` s o m e t h i n g t h a t - - t h a t ' s n o t p r o v i d i n g s o m e
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` t y p e o f r e s p o n s i v e a c t i o n w o u l d b e a d i s p l a y
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`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 19
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` that's just displaying something to a user.
`
` They're just looking at the display. They're
`
` not providing an input that causes some
`
` action responsibly, whereas, user interactive
`
` interface would include that. It would be a
`
` way that the user can interact with the
`
` computer but would also provide some action
`
` that's then responsive to the user's input.
`
` MR. FISHER: That's not really
`
` what I asked. I'm going to move to
`
` strike that answer as non-responsive.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm trying to
`
` answer the best I understand your
`
` question.
`
` BY MR. FISHER:
`
` Q. It's non-responsive because I
`
` did not ask you to expound upon what an
`
` interactive user interface --
`
` A. Well, I understand my counsel
`
` can object, but I have to defend myself. I'm
`
` explaining I did -- the way I understood that
`
` question, I answered it.
`
` MR. FISHER: The motion to
`
` strike stands.
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`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 20
`
` BY MR. FISHER:
`
` Q. Let's move on.
`
` I'm going to hand you what I'll
`
` represent to you is Paper 1 in the IPR which
`
` is the Petition.
`
` - - -
`
` (Paper 1, Petition, was
`
` previously marked for identification.)
`
` - - -
`
` BY MR. FISHER:
`
` Q. Could you, please, turn to
`
` page 13 of the Petition. If you look on
`
` lines 2 and 3 of page 13, it says, "As used
`
` in the claims, the interactive user interface
`
` is a display presented on the output component
`
` of the terminal."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you agree with that?
`
` A. Certainly the interactive --
`
` yes, the interactive user interface is a
`
` display presented on the output component of
`
` the terminal. You know, that's what I
`
` understand the interactive user interface to
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`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 21
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` be how it is presented.
`
` Q. So it's not enough for a device
`
` other than the terminal to present the
`
` display. Correct?
`
` MR. ASHER: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I didn't
`
` understand that. I mean, you know,
`
` you have to restate that somehow. I
`
` didn't understand what you meant.
`
` BY MR. FISHER:
`
` Q. To meet the claims, it's not
`
` enough for a device other than the terminal
`
` to present the display. Correct?
`
` A. To meet the claims, which
`
` claims are you referring to, I guess, would
`
` be one question. But to meet this
`
` particular -- I just don't understand your
`
` question. We can maybe look at the claims
`
` and you can point to that specifically, I can
`
` explain it.
`
` Q. So you don't know what claims
`
` the Petition is talking about on page 13?
`
` A. Well, claim 1 includes the
`
` interactive user interface, I understand
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`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 22
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` that. And I know that claim and how it
`
` works. I just don't understand your question.
`
` Q. Okay. You understand -- let's
`
` just talk about claim 1 then. You know that
`
` claim 1 refers to an interactive user interface.
`
` Correct?
`
` A. Right.
`
` Q. And the Petition says the
`
` interactive user interface is a display
`
` presented on the output component of the
`
` terminal. Correct?
`
` A. Right.
`
` Q. So if the display were presented
`
` on the output component of a device other than
`
` the terminal, that would not be insufficient --
`
` let me rephrase that. Withdrawn.
`
` So if the display were
`
` presented on the output component of a device
`
` other than the terminal, that would not be
`
` sufficient to meet the interactive user
`
` interface limitation of claim 1. Correct?
`
` A. The way I understand it is that
`
` the interactive user interface would need to
`
` be presented on the terminal. So if it's
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`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 23
`
` something other than the terminal as defined
`
` by that claim and construed in that claim --
`
` in other words, it would need to be on the
`
` terminal. So other -- if it was displayed
`
` someplace else, I don't believe it would meet
`
` the claim. You need to be able to present
`
` that on the terminal as it is in that claim.
`
` Q. I think I understand.
`
` A. I don't have the patent right
`
` in front of me. It would be better for me to
`
` actually refer to that claim to confirm that,
`
` but just my memory of that claim and how it
`
` was worded, it involves displaying that on a
`
` terminal as construed in the claim or used in
`
` that claim.
`
` Q. So based on the -- on your
`
` definition of interactive user interface,
`
` which, as you may recall, and it's on page 14
`
` of your Declaration, means a display with
`
` which the user may interact to result in the
`
` computer taking action responsibly. If you
`
` look at claim 1 and you consider that the
`
` display has to be presented on the output
`
` component of the terminal, in order for the
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`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 24
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` terminal to take action responsibly to the
`
` user interaction, that terminal would have to
`
` execute some code. Right?
`
` A. Okay. But first of all, I
`
` don't have the patent right in front of me
`
` referring to the claim. So it would be
`
` helpful -- it's in my declaration, so I can
`
` go there, but it would be easier if I had the
`
` patent in front of me. I didn't bring it
`
` with me. I brought my Declaration, but --
`
` I'll use my Declaration. I'll look at the
`
` claims in the Declaration. It would speed
`
` things up if I had the patent in front of me,
`
` but let me look at this.
`
` According to the claim, you're
`
` asking specific questions about how the
`
` claims are working, I suppose, but the claim
`
` certainly states that there's -- the first
`
` program code when executed, which is executed
`
` on the portable device, not the terminal, but
`
` the portable device, it causes an interactive
`
` user interface to be presented on the first
`
` output component which is that interactive
`
` user interface is defined as I construed on
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 25
`
` page 14. And then the interactive user
`
` interface is configured to enable the user to
`
` cause --
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` COURT REPORTER: You need to
`
` speak slower.
`
` THE WITNESS: Wherein the
`
` interactive user interface is
`
` configured to enable the user to cause
`
` the portable device processor to
`
` execute code. So there's an
`
` interaction with that interactive user
`
` interface by the user through the
`
` terminal to cause code to be executed
`
` on the portable device. I think
`
` you're asking the question, and I
`
` think implying that it's going to be
`
` executed on the terminal. But it's
`
` executed on the portable device. And
`
` that's the code that causes other
`
` things to take place as you go through
`
` further in the claims.
`
` So I think, if I remember
`
` right, your question was implying that
`
` there was code -- when the interaction
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`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Ingenico v. IOENGINE
`IPR2019-00416 (US 8,539,047)
`Exhibit 2110
`
`

`

`JAMES T. GEIER
`
`Page 26
`
`