Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 1 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 1 of 16
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`EXHIBIT 19
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 1 of 16
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`EXHIBIT 19
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`UNREDACTED VERSION OF
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`FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
`
`SAN FRANCISCO DIVISION
`
`Case No.: 3:17-cv-05659-WHA
`
`FINJAN,
`
`INC., a Delaware Corporation,
`
`Plaintiff,
`
`V.
`
`JUNIPER NETWORKS,
`
`INC., a Delaware
`
`Corporation,
`
`Defendant.
`
`AUDIO-VISUAL DEPOSITION OF
`
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER
`
`** HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL **
`
`July 3, 2018
`
`9:32 a.m.
`
`Esquire Deposition Solutions
`
`50 Federal Street, 6th Floor
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`Boston, Massachusetts
`
`Kristin M. Kelley, RPR, CRR
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 2 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 2 of 16
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`July 03, 2018
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`1
`
`IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`
`
`
`BQ ESQUIRE
`
`Derositiow soLUTIONS
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`
`
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 3 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 3 of 16
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`July 03, 2018
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`124
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`and ordinary meaning could benefit from
`
`explanation and I provide particular
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`explanation in paragraphs 39 to 41. But in
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`particular in paragraph 39 I point out that
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`this term has been construed before with a
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`construction adopted by multiple courts
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`which I think really just clarifies what one
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`would generally understand to be the plain
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`and ordinary meaning.
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`So I certainly kept
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`that in mind in this context.
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`And that construction that you identified
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`was performing a hashing function on the
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`Downloadable together with its fetched
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`components to generate a Downloadable ID,
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`correct?
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`MS. HEDVAT: Objection,
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`form.
`
`Yeah.
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`I think you might have missed a word.
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`I
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`think it's with its fetched software
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`components, at least what
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`I have in front of
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`me, but otherwise I think that's right.
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`10
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`Okay. What does it mean to perform "a
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`hashing function on the Downloadable
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`together with its fetched software
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`33
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`components"?
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`Z
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`ESQUIRE
`
`DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`Esquire Solutions. com
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`
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 4 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 4 of 16
`
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`July 03, 2018
`
`A.
`
`I would say in general that depends on the
`
`context.
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`Does "together with" require it to occur at
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`the same time?
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`No.
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`I don't believe that's a specific
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`requirement or I didn't see any timing
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`requirement in the claim language.
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`Does it -- does "together with" require it
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`to be the same type of hashing function?
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`I would just add to the last answer,
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`certainly together in time might be a way to
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`achieve together with.
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`I didn't want to
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`suggest it wouldn't be related but it
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`certainly wouldn't have to be the only way,
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`sort of what
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`I was thinking in that form.
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`Just before we-move on to clarify.
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`So,
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`in
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`other words, it wouldn't have to be --
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`strike that.
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`So,
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`in other words,
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`the hashing of the
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`Downloadable and the fetched software
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`components wouldn't have to occur at the
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`game time in order for it to constitute
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`"together with"?
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`MS. HEDVAT: Objection,
`form.
`
`ZESQUIRE
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`DEPositiow sowUTiONS
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`732
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 5 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 5 of 16
`
`July 03, 2018
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`126
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`A.
`
`Right.
`
`I don't think it would have to be at
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`the same time but that could certainly --
`
`yeah.
`
`I don't think that's a requirement.
`
`I don't see a temporal requirement.
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`Okay. And so the second portion of that
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`that I was asking about is whether "together
`
`with" would require performing the same type
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`of hashing function on the Downloadable and
`
`the fetched software components?
`
`I think I need to you at least clarify what
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`you mean by saying same type of hashing
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`function.
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`We talked a little earlier about MD5 or
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`SHA-256.
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`Those are different types of
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`hashing functions, right?
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`MS. HEDVAT: Objection,
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`form.
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`I would say they're different hashing
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`functions.
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`I'm not exactly clear what you
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`mean by different types.
`
`If you just want
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`to say those are two different hash
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`functions,
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`I agree.
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`So does "together with" require that you use
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`the same hashing function on the
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`Downloadable and the fetched software
`
`Z
`
`ESQUIRE
`
`DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
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`
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 6 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 6 of 16
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`July 03, 2018
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`127
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`components?
`No.
`I wouldn't think so.
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`I wouldn't think
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`that would be a requirement.
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`I could easily
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`imagine possible schemes where you might use
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`different subhash functions or suboperations
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`on various different components and combine
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`them in various different ways.
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`Does the "together with" aspect require that
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`the hashing function for the Downloadable
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`and the fetched software components be
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`completed by the same component
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`in the
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`source code?
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`MS. HEDVAT: Objection,
`
`form.
`
`I feel like the way I've heard the question
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`you've gotten somewhat confused or using
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`terms differently.
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`You know,
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`so there's a
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`hashing function that's performed on the
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`Downloadable together with its fetched
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`components. There might be suboperations
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`that are used in constructing or performing
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`that hashing function.
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`So,
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`for instance, when you say does it
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`require using the same hashing function on
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`the components, it definitely needs to be
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`Z ESQUIRE
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`DEPOS|TION SOLUTIONS
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 7 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 7 of 16
`
`July 03, 2018
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`128
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`understood that there's sort of a global
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`hashing function that's acting on the
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`collection.
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`Those may use suboperations or
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`subcomponents which may involve hashing on
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`the individual components, and so that was
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`the sense in which I was saying you could --
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`when you were saying can they use different
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`types of hash functions or I would say
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`different hash functions, certainly as
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`subpieces of the global hash calculation you
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`might do different things at different parts
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`or different components.
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`How would you be able to tell whether it's
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`subparts of a global hashing function versus
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`separate hashing functions?
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`Again by the code itself or how they're
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`collected together.
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`So would it have to be in the same
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`directory?
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`Would what have to be in the same directory?
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`So I asked how you would tell if it was
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`subhashing functions or two separate hashing
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`functions and you said by looking at the
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`code.
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`So what would you look for in the
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
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` Z
`
`ESQUIRE
`
`DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
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`
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 8 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 8 of 16
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`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`FINJAN V, JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`July 03, 2018
`129
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`code to see if it was a subhashing
`
`functionality versus two separate ones?
`
`MS. HEDVAT: Objection,
`
`form.
`
`That would depend on the context, but one
`
`thing I might
`
`look for is are the hashes
`
`again one thing we brought
`
`in was are they
`
`hashed over a certain time period. Another
`
`thing I would look at is are they hashed and
`
`combined into a collection of some form.
`
`Could you have two separate hash functions
`
`that are later combined?
`
`I think that would fit into what I was
`
`discussing. You'd be hashing together with.
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`Yes. You might for various reasons not have
`
`them be hashed at the same point in time.
`
`That could be more effective or more
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`efficient depending on when and where the
`
`fetch components were coming into the
`
`system,
`
`for instance.
`
`So it could certainly
`
`have the hashing done at different points in
`
`time or locations in the code,
`
`I guess I
`
`would say for efficiency and effectiveness
`
`reasons, and then combine them into a single
`
`hash of a Downloadable together with the
`
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 9 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 9 of 16
`
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`July 03, 2018
`
`130
`
`fetch components.
`
`It's your understanding even if you did
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`separate hashing functions on the
`
`Downloadable and the fetched software
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`components using different portions of the
`
`code, as long as you combine them together,
`
`then that would satisfy the "together with"
`
`aspect of the claim construction?
`
`MS. HEDVAT: Objection,
`
`form.
`
`I would think that could be one way of
`
`Satisfying it and, again,
`
`I think that has
`
`to be with the understanding that you're
`
`doing the sort of suboperations or what
`
`I
`
`might call subhashing functions in the
`
`course of creating the larger global
`
`ID,
`
`Downloadable ID.
`
`Is it your understanding that the
`
`Downloadable ID can consist of more than one
`
`hash value?
`
`So I sort of want
`
`to -- well, yes, and let
`
`me clarify with two different explanations
`
`depending on the interpretation of your
`
`question.
`
`So a Downloadable ID has to include a
`
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 10 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 10 of 16
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`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`July 03, 2018
`
`131
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`BZ ESQUIRE
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`DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`EsquireSolutions.com
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`hash.
`
`It's supposed to be generated by
`
`hashing -- or what's the exact word
`
`something you perform a hashing function on
`
`the Downloadable and the fetch software
`
`components to generate a Downloadable ID?
`
`I
`
`think the patent specifically states that
`
`the Downloadable ID might contain other
`
`information.
`
`It might consist of more than
`
`just a hash so certainly you might have --
`
`as long as you have a hashing function on
`
`the Downloadable on the hashing components
`
`to generate a Downloadable ID, you might
`
`have additional stuff which might
`
`include
`
`additional values formed by hashing or
`
`elsewhere.
`
`Alternatively,
`
`the other way, again,
`
`the way I've been trying to be clear and
`
`explain it to you, you may have a single
`
`value which consists of a collection of
`
`subvalues or results of subcomputations that
`
`are combined. That is one of the ways of
`
`generating a hash value.
`
`So to the extent
`
`that I understand your question is saying
`
`can a single hash value arise from computing
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 11 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 11 of 16
`
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`
`July 03, 2018
`132
`
`multiple like subhash functions or
`
`subcomputations that are later made into a
`
`hash,
`
`I would say yes. And,
`
`in fact,
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`I
`
`think I've given one or more examples of how
`
`I know that's done in the art in my report.
`
`Okay.
`
`So just to make sure I understand,
`
`is
`
`it your understanding that a system that
`
`computed two different what you're calling
`
`subhash values and put
`
`them together to
`
`collectively identify the Downloadable and
`
`the fetched software components would meet
`
`the "together with" limitation?
`
`MS. HEDVAT: Objection,
`
`form.
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`00:
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`:14
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`00:
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`:16
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`00:
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`:20
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`00:
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`:23
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`00:
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`00:
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`00;
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`740
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`00:
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`743
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`00:
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`49
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`746
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`00:
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`49;
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`50
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`00:
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`49;
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`53
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`00:
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`49:
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`56
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`00:
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`49;
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`57
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`So I would say as always when looking for
`
`infringement
`
`I would want to look fora
`
`specific implementation, but I believe at
`
`that level that would be certainly
`
`potentially one possible way of infringing.
`
`Taking a look at the infringement section
`
`for Element 1(c) of your declaration which
`
`begins on page 29 at paragraph 83, did you
`
`identify any source code in your declaration
`
`that performs a hashing function?
`
`MS. HEDVAT: Objection,
`
`form.
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`50:
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`48
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`50:
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`58
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`00;
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`51:
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`00
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`00:
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`51:
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`06
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`
`
`aaa!
`
`@ ESQUIRE
`
`DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`
`
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 12 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 12 of 16
`
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`
`July 03, 2018
`221
`
`Reference No.: 2395311
`
`
`
`1
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`Case:
`
`FINJAN V.
`
`JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`DECLARATION UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY
`
`I declare under penalty of perjury that
`I have read the entire transcript of my Depo-
`sition taken in the captioned matter or the
`same has been read to me, and the same is
`
`true and accurate, save and except for
`changes and/or corrections, if any, as indi-
`cated by me on the DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET
`hereof, with the understanding that I offer
`these changes as if still under oath,
`et LAE"
`
`
`
`Michael D. Mitzenmacher
`
`NOTARIZATION OF CHANGES
`
`(If Required)
`
`
`
`
`Subscribed and sworn to on the
`
`day of
`
`, 20~before me,
`
`(Notary Sign)
`
`
`
`(Print Name)
`
`Notary Public,
`
`Hassachuse FES
`in and for the State of
`
`BZ ESQUIRE
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
`
`
`
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 13 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 13 of 16
`
`
`
`Change to:
`
`___yeese
`
`Line No. 24
`Page No. °
`"convenience" to Vaonvenient"
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`Page No. 19
`ine No. 16
`Change to:
`Noft Co wor"
`Reason for change:_typographical0______—
`Page No. 23
`Line No._3
`Change to:
`
`momPPWwWDN
`OoowoOON
`
`July 03, 2018222
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`EINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`Reference No.: 2395311
`Case:
`FINJAN V.
`JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
` toe
`
`
`Reason for change:typographical0
`
`Page No. 40
`Line No. 14
`Change to:
`Nthe fetch" to "fetch"
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`Page No. 40
`Sine No. 16
`Change to:
`"tempo" to "temporal"
`
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`Page No. = Line No.
`19 Change to:
`"to restoring" to "to storing"
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`Page No. 56
`Line No. 21
`Change to:
`Ngites" to "cites"
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`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
`
`tw Wari
`SIGNATURE :
`Michael D. Mitzenmacher
`
`DATE: 7/t0/lF
`
`BQ ESQUIRE
`DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
`
`300.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`
`
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 14 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 14 of 16
`
`July 03, 2018
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`223
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`.
`
`Reference No.: 2395311
`
`Case:
`
`FINJAN V.
`
`JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`Change to:
`_Line No. +
`Page No. 58
`Van executable file" to "a text file"
`
`
`
`
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`Page No. 58
`Line No.
`8
`Change to:
`"wrote" to "was written"
`
`Reason for change:
`typographical
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`Page No. 58
`
`Line No. 11
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`Change to:
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`"gealing which" to "C language"
`
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`Page No.
`58 Line No. 13
`Change to:
`"files contain" to "files can contain"
`
`
`Reason for change:
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`typographical
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`Page No. 61
`
`Line No. 5
`
`Change to:
`
`"original" to "additional"
`
`
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`Page No.
`62
`Line No. 11
`Change to:
`"typically" to "particularly"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
`Change to:
`Line No, 21
`Page No. 67
`to "such as gzip"
`"such as JSON"
`
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`
`Cc
`SIGNATURE: Me
`
`Michael D. Mitzenmacher
`
`DATE: T/20/1¥
`
`ESQUIRE
`
`DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`LB
`
`
`
`onyvnuFWND
`
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`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 15 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 15 of 16
`
`July 03, 2018
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS
`222
`
`Reference No.: 2395311
`
`Case:
`
`FINJAN V.
`
`JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`Change to:
`Page No. 83__Line No. 13
`'varying" to "variant"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
`
`Page No.112 Line No.
`
`8
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`Change to:
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`“aontext" to "content"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
`Change to:
`Page No. 129 Line No. 18
`“fetch components" to "fetched components"
`Reason for change:
`typographical
`
`Page No. 130 Line No. 1
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`Change to:
`
`"fetch components." to "fetched components."
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
`Change to:
`Page No. 141 Line No. 20
`"fetch components." to "fetched components."
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
`
`Change to:
`Page No. 147 Line No._9
`"drop files" to "dropped files"
`typographical
`Reason for change:
`Page No.154
`Line No.?
`Change to: "I'd say in different
`context." to "I'd say it's different in different context"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`
`typographical
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`onyvnoOFFWDN
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`SIGNATURE:
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`LUAce aaa”
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`DATE:
`
`// Zo/!/
`
`25
`
`Michael D. Mitzenmacher
`
`
`ZB ESQUIRE
`
`pérasiriox socuTjons
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`
`
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 16 of 16
`Case 3:17-cv-05659-WHA Document 500-7 Filed 05/30/19 Page 16 of 16
`
`July 03, 2018
`MICHAEL D. MITZENMACHER Highly Confidential
`
`FINJAN V. JUNIPER NETWORKS 223
`
`Case:
`
`FINJAN V.
`
`JUNIPER NETWORKS
`
`Page No. 199 Line No.15
`
`Change to:
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`"profile basis" to "per file basis"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
`
`Page No.179 Line No.
`
`17 Change to:
`
`"£unction is" to "function that is"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
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`Page No. 186 Line No. 6
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`Change to:
`
`"the junior products" to "the Juniper products"
`
`
`
` Reference No.: 2395311
`
`Reason for change:
`199
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`typographical
`
`Change to:
`7
`Line No.
`Page No.
`"fetch components" to "fetched components"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
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`Change to:
`Page No. 205 Line No. 6
`Yare a standard" to "and a standard"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
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`Page No. 205 Line No.
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`7
`
`Change to:
`
`"funetions.
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`Can be by" to "functions, can be by"
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
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`Change to:
`Page No. 215 Line No. 17
`"made an argument." to "made in my argument."
`
`Reason for change:
`
`typographical
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`SIGNATURE:
`
`Off geen
`
`DATE:
`
`// to7 ly
`
`Michael D. Mitzenmacher
`
`
`BESQUIRE
`
`oFposition soLuTions
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`oayDHWHFFWDN
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